Tavistock (Findlay) nj

[mark chalfant]

Hows the terrain and green complexes here. is the front nine
more/ less interesting than the back. most memorable holes ?
I believe Woodcrest may be in the general area, any thoughts on which course  is more fun to play.   thanks

[JESII]

Mark,

No real answers to your questions, but Jamie Slonis is a poster here and a member there that, I believe, is intimately involved in the major renovation (restoration??) project they are undertaking this summer. Course closed for 10 months or something. He'll likely see this and give you all the information yo might want, if a bit biased give, him a break  

[Dan Herrmann]

Findlay has some very interesting golf courses in metro Philly.  Coatesville CC (home of a USGA Open local qualifier) could be a really super course if they removed 80% of the trees.  

Same could be said about Flynn's Woodcrest, though...

[JNagle]

The green at Tavistock, the 13 original Findlay greens are EXCELLENT.  The internal rolls, bumps, swells, swales and nuances are genius.  The 8th green (long par 3) is one of my favorite anywhere.  A alight double tier from back to front and very slight tier from left to right on the upper level.  This green has lost significant cupping area at the front left and right, which will be restored.  A number of the greens have a "bump" or "dome" 6-8" high in the front 1/3 of the greens.  The feature does not seem repetative because Findlay changes the location, shape, depth and elevation of the feature.  Greens 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17 and 18 are untouched.  6 has been added too (and plays in the opposite direction), but 1/2 of the green is original.  The 18th green is a great complement to finish a "shortish" finishing hole because of its slope and internal contours.  #17 once fully expanded and the bunker restored will provide great strategy because of multiple tucked hole locations.  The green now must be 1/2 it original size.  The 16th is simply too steep.  When we recontruct this green we will simply lower the rear (and extend back) and raise the front.  The internal contour of the green (a shelf running through the middle of the green from 3 to 9 o'clock) will not be touched.  Cupping areas will still be on the steep end.  We don't belive in just creating 2% or less cupping areas all over a green.  Many old courses are cupping on greater than 5% slopes and are fine with that, so we like to push the envelope a little.  The 4th green will be rebuilt in character with the other Finlday greens.  Robert Trent Jones Sr. was responsible for the work completed when 295 took some property.  His greens on #5 and #14 are o.k.  We felt they work with the rest of the course.  Some minor tweaking will be done to the overall shape to better mimic a classic green.

[JSlonis]

Mark,

I can't really add any more info to what Jim has already stated about our greens.  I do think that when the restoration is complete and we recapture all of our lost space, that the greens at Tavistock will be some of the most interesting and challenging that you'll find in the Philly area.

As far as our nines go, they are pretty balanced, although if I had to choose, I'd say the back nine has a bit more character.

I worked at Woodcrest CC as an Asst. Pro after college for two seasons, so I know that course quite well also.  Woodcrest is always in excellent condition.  I don't know if any tree work has been done there recently, but when I was there, the design, while good in spots, just got choked off by too many trees, especially Pines.  If the holes were opened up some, the course would benefit greatly.

Between TCC and WCC, I think TCC, is a more complete course, and more fun to play.  I'm not biased at all.

[archie_struthers]

Pretty easy thread to chime in since I started my career as a looper at Woodcrest and have played Tavistock lots of times.

I know Jamie is a little biased as he is a card carrying member of Tavistock and he and his mates won GAP (golf association of philadelphia) team matches for the last few years. They have a great group of players there.

I  agree with him that the greens at Tavistock are more intricate than Woodcrest, they are rather good. This is a really interesting point and I hope we discuss it further.

However the subtleties and angles of attack at Woodcrest make me give it a slight edge. Of course having grown up across the street, I am definitely biased!

Back to the greens! At Woodcrest (Flynn)they are extremely flat, and far less intricate than most of Flynn' work. Even the old greens at Atlantic City (post Doak) on a totally flat sight had a lot more action. Only the greens that were tinkered with dramatically over the years have much  movement (#6 & 16). I liked them a lot more in their original state.

If I didn't know better I'd think Park and not Flynn did the greens. They are on the whole very similar to the saucer like pods at Greate Bay (Ocean City Somers Point) and even Olympia Fields (two 1920's Park works.)  Maybe Messrs. Morrison and Paul can comment as to this. Also, the almost obligatory diamond shaped greens that Flynn employed to great advantage at many of his courses in Philly is strangely absent at Woodcrest. Perhaps he built this for the masses, given its roots as a public golf course.

They flip flopped the nines a few years ago, making the stronger of the two in difficulty the back. Number 12 (old three) is one of the better par fours in Philadelphia, demanding length and accuracy.

Both Woodcrest and Tavistock are a little cramped and feel similar in this respect, I don't know the acreage but I would guess both are on less than 125 total. I'm being a little rough here but if I had a complaint about either this woud be it.

Both Tavistock and Woodcrest are wonderful member golf courses, with a variety of interesting golf holes on each. Both are enjoyable to walk and a good test of your skills. They speak to the breadth of quality in the area that they aren't mentioned more in passing.

[wsmorrison]

Archie,

A fellow named Goldthorp believed a railway spur was going to be built between Camden and Berlin (NJ that is).  Goldthorp acquired property thinking that it would be far more valuable as residentioal rather than farm property once the railway was put in.  Well, the railway never happened so Goldthorp thought he'd be able to get a return on his investment by building a public golf course on the land.  He hired Flynn to design and build the golf course.  Nine holes opened for play in the spring of 1930 (which explains why the railway project was shelved) and the second nine opened for play later that year.  Five more holes were laid out across the street but never finished.  The course was considered one of the finest in the region, private or public and the rough was usually kept pretty high.

There were no Jewish clubs in the area and there was a gentlemen's agreement that kept it that way at the time.  In 1946 a group of Jewish men tried to buy the club from Goldthorp.  Goldthorp was not inclined to sell so the men purchased an inferior course called Iron Rock renaming it Crest Hollow CC.  Feeling they missed out on a quality course, they persuaed Goldthorp to sell Woodcrest to them in 1948 and the Crest Hollow CC was sold to provide funds for the purchase.

Given that the club was designed for public play, much as Flynn designed the Flynn owned daily fee Marble Hall (now the private Green Valley), it was designed for a different market than a private course but was none the less a quality golf course.

[JSlonis]

Archie,

We've taken out "A LOT" ;Dof trees over the past two years. For example, from the back tee on #6, up near Rt 295, you can now clearly see the halfway house and barn by the 10th green. There is definitely no longer a cramped feel to TCC.  The one thing I do disagree on is your nod to WCC for angles of attack.  The fairways and corridors of WCC were very narrow when I was there.  My one knock on Woodcrest has always been that there is sort of a one dimensional feel to many of the holes...hit to a narrow fairway, and keep it out of the pine trees...hole after hole.  

Hope all is well.  If you want to tee it up sometime at the deforested TCC, let me know.

[wsmorrison]

The bunkering at Woodcrest does not look like Flynn anymore.  More like a combination of Rees Jones doing Tillinghast and Ault and Clark.  Ouch!  

I've never been to Tavistock, but it looks a lot more interesting from 5000 feet than does Woodcrest.  I bet it does on the ground as well  

[archie_struthers]

Jamie,

Like I said I giver the nod to Woodcrest as much because of
it being my home court. Certainly a photo finish.

Woodcrest a more diificult driving course, as the angles are really pretty tricky. Maybe it was harder for me because I was a stone fader forevever. Now I don't know which way I hit it.

All those dogleg lefts at Woodcrest are tough for me, lol!