[J_McKenzie]

Interesting segment during the TPC coverage today discussing the renovation that is taking place at the Stadium Course and the players opinions on firm and fast conditions.  Luke Donald went so far as to say that the abilility to create and maintain firm and fast conditions could eliminate the need for continued lengthening of current championship courses.

So will this be the next trend in course renovation and/or new course construction- sand capping fairways and installing extensive sub-surface draining systems?  Will entire golf courses be spec'd and constructed like current USGA greens?  It's only money......  

[Jon Wiggett]

Creating 'Firm & Fast' conditions at most golf courses does not require the sand capping of fairways nor extra drainage. Such messures would only lead to requiring more watering and fertiliser in order to keep the turf alive. What would help would be a more responsable use of water, ensuring that courses were set up to take a running style game and a wider acceptance of this style amongst the wider golfing community

[JESII]

JMcK

Have USGA spec greens (and recommended maintenance practice) proven to be the best way to sustain healthy firm / fast conditions?        I have been under the impression that sucking the water out of the ground that fast disables the roots from really growing strong.      

A real positive though is the thought processes of some of these young guys on Tour considering Geoff Ogilvy's and Tiger Woods statements a few weeks ago about design intent and skill requirements.     The unfortunate negative is the reputation Tour guys have earned with their constant complaining about quirky difficult conditions which naturally arise with firm and fast practices.

[J_McKenzie]

JES II,

You ask a good question that perhaps can be best answered by a few of the superintendents that post here.  I believe the purpose of some sub-surface systems is not just to suck the water out, but to actually allow for the control of the moisture level in the soil in order to maintain ideal growing conditions.  Again, someone with more expertise can better address this.

I guess by my original question- will what they are doing at the Stadium Course start a new trend in design and construction- I should have asked could or should it start a new trend?  Like, for example, the trend of installing sub-air systems into greens, the trend of million dollar plus landscape budgets to transplant mature trees and/or create "natural" waterfalls, etc....  

[Gary_Mahanay]

I believe this sand capping and sub surface drainage that they are going with after this tournament is over, will be to try to weather proof the golf course.  During rainy times at the TPC tournament, they can get it dried out quicker and thus playing firm and fast again.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jon Wiggett,
While in principle I agree with your statement, there are exceptions. One being a course with heavy soils in a wet climate. Sand capping definitly helps...a lot. Is it needed everywhere? No, but there are times it will be a big plus if firm and fast is the mandate.  

[Gary_Mahanay]

Don,

You talked about sand capping the fairways at the course that you and Mike N are building in south Texas.  Does that natural ground not already have a very high sand content?  Are y'all sand capping for better drainage or will there have to be catch basins all over the place?

Gary

[Don_Mahaffey]

Gary,
We have a lot of sand to work with, but we will have to move it around a bit. There will be catch basins, but we are being pretty creative with them. You, being a super, will know where they are, but I don't think anyone will leave the course thinking there were a lot of catch basins littered about.  

[Bill_McBride]

A major component of Jerry Pate's redo of our old Pensacola Country Club course is turning all the fairways and getting the buried sand up on top.  There are also a number of lakes being dug out with the sand added to the sand capping of the fairways.

This is all designed to mitigate the mucky fairways caused by poor drainage in the past.  "Firm and fast" is the goal.

Can't wait to see the results.  The new fairways have a lot more contour than in the past and the new water hazards will necessitate more shaping of shots.  

I hope to host a GCA event sometime next year to show off our new course.

[Doug Siebert]

J_McKenzie,

Have courses (other than ANGC) been transplanting mature trees?  That's something I wasn't aware of, though on new courses you'd have to have seen the land before (and remembered it well) to be able to tell.

Does anyone kow much it costs to transplant a mature tree?  What are the limits size-wise for this?  Maybe this is a stupid reason, but I've got a nice lot I'm going to build a house on, which some nice trees on the back of the lot but nothing around where the house will be built.  If the price isn't totally outrageous, plucking a few 40 foot trees and sticking them next to the house once its done sounds better than planting saplings and waiting forever for some decent trees to grow or planting some fast growing trashy stuff that'll still take a decade to mature.

[TEPaul]

J. McKenzie:

On the final day of Bay Hill the commentators were interviewing Tim Finchem who was up at TPC in Jacksonville getting ready for this week's tournament.

I was truly struck by what Finchem was not just saying about firm and fast but how he was saying it. The man was really talking the talk. One could tell he wasn't just paying lip service to the concept but he was really into the applied details of how it works playability-wise and what it can accomplish that way.

Perhaps somewhat unfortunately, as to some of our feelings on firm and fast conditions, Finchem was also stressing the flip side of firm and fast conditions for players (additional length) in that he was also stressing a unform 4 inch rough!!!

As we all know that firmer and faster conditions on tour combined with higher uniform rough will effectively narrow fairway area and cut down on recoverablity when players miss fairways.

Not just that but he did stress that they were "sand capping" fairways at TPC. This is certainly one way of creating firm and fast conditions on fairways but it's a whole lot more expensive to do generally than drying out courses over time by regular aeriaton, tynning, soil remediation (less compaction) and less irrigation to get the roots and the water down there deeper. Finchem's public mention of sand-capping fairways could start another high cost approach to maintenance that clubs who mimic the tour may not be ready for.

Massive fairways sand capping is for clubs with plenty of maintenance dollars and some even have become concerned about the long term effects on fairway agronomy if the sand used is too neutral.

If golf clubs are going to get on the sand capping (top dressing) fairway bandwagon they should endeavor to use what Scott Anderson calls "dirty soil" when they do it. It's more nutritional in the long run.

[Jimbo]

Bill McBride,

Pictures please!!!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Did anyone see the Golf Channel last night? They were interviewing Fred Klauk, GCS of the TPC. He said that they are lookin ginto playing next years tournament on bermuda grass because of the later date. He also commented the the rough would be shorter. That would be a differnt lookf for the TPC......I wonder if they will be able to get the 12-13 foot stimp readings that they get now, on the bermuda next year....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[jeffwarne]

Absolutely amazing to me how the real problem,
clubs and balls that go too--- far cannot be addressed.
Instead we get solutions that may drive up scores and "protect par", but don't address the problem that the ball GOES TOO FAR. and most of these solutions CHANGE the game and cost a fortune.
I'm all for firm and fast, but asking me to stop a wedge on a firm green is not the same test as asking me to hit a 3 iron on the green from 210 yards.Although both are difficult,they present different skills.

Firm and fast are great when weather,cost, and turf conditions permit. Now our members have to put up with the process and expense of sanding fairways(or better yet subair systems) because somebody shot too low at TPC. those who think firm and fast are cheaper and easier to maintain are naive. Suprintendants will tell you different.
Last year the northeast saw a lot of firm and fast in unirrigated areas and many found out there's a fine line between dormant and dead when they saw the course being reseeded in the fall.

and asking me to tee off with a 2 iron to hold a firm fairway and avoid 4 inch rough may curb raw power ,but it's not the same as fixing the ball problem.
Anyone who watched the debacle at Shinnecock saw players hit IRONS on #6 290 yards and then hit mid to short irons in.
Boring and not a test of DRIVING skill. To test that you have to put DRIVERS in the players hands.Rock hard narrow fairways won't promote that unless you fix the ball-otherwise they just rip fairway woods and irons.

[Craig Sweet]

jeff, I thought the idea was to improve drainage and course playability after heavy storms, (a good improvement for everyday play) and a side benefit was the pro's would see a different look next year.

[jeffwarne]

Craig,
I'm all for improving drainage. Particularly on a course that's built on a swamp and is an important tournament venue that can't schedule it's weather for an event.
I was really debating the reference to Luke Donald's comment  about using firm and fast to counter length.
i'm all for firm and fast, but not as a substitute for fixing the technology problem.

[J_McKenzie]

Doug,

I believe there are numerous courses that are transplanting trees, from Peeble Beach where they replanted a single mature tree near the 18th green to one of Fazio's latest where they transplanted over 1,500 mature trees.  Then there are the desert courses in Vegas and Palm Springs that are instantly tree-lined.  It is also a very common practice here in the coastal southeast from transplanting palm trees to surprisingly large live oaks.  The cost varies depending on the size of the tree and goes down depending on the number of trees you are planting.

TEPaul,

You hit on what I was trying to get at-  will this be the next big trend in course construction?  There have been things done in the past at say AGNC, which seemed outrageous (financially) when first done, but that are now generally accepted construction or maintainance practices.  I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to whether this is a good thing or bad, I'm just curious about what others think.

Does sand-capping make more sense than seeking out the out-of-the-way sites just because they are sandy?  

[Jon Wiggett]

Don,

I am in agreemnent with your reply. One must always look at each situation on an individual basis. I do how ever feel that the term ‘Fast & Firm’ should be better defined as it is important that one maintains a healthy sward which allows the player to execute a cleanly struck shot.  
In my opinion one has to ensure that the sub-soil is well drained, when not naturally then through pipe drainage the deeper the better. Regular slitting and tining of the suface in my experience helps alot as does mole draining (especially with clay based soils) and sand banding.
I am basing my comments on my experience in Europe and do not intend to suggest that this is correct any where else nor that this is the only possibility. I would have however reservasions about wall to wall USGA style courses in most cases here in europe as they do require more water which is becoming much harder find for such things. At the moment in Britain there are areas with water bans in place and this coming out of the winter. In addition the maintenance costs are much higher on such courses
I feel that it is better to work with and improve the existing soil. I should also add that for me sand capping is when you place a layer of sand over the existing soil as one does in the usual green build. If  sand is mixed into the present soil that would count as improving the existing soil. Maybe I have my terminology wrong?
To finish I would also say that in greenkeeping circles there is a heated debate going on about the possibility of a total chemical ban here in europe and this coupled with massive water restrictions. I am of the opinion that this slowly (20 years or so) happen in the majority of europe and if it does then it is also up to the architect to allow for this in his designing

[TEPaul]

"Does sand-capping make more sense than seeking out the out-of-the-way sites just because they are sandy?"  

J. McKenzie:

Good question. I'm not an agronomist or architect so I'm not sure about that. I'd think sand capping is a sort of partial solution just to achieve firmer and faster conditions on soils that may not be that conducive to F&F but sand capping  would never be as ideal as a nice sandy loam soil that's generally well draining where the roots can go deep.

[Craig Sweet]

Hmmm......the FIRST...the very FIRST thing is to have healthy turf.....THAT should be job one.

You can have firm and fast, and your turf can be on the very edge of a melt down.

I believe everything begins and ends with the soil and the roots....the things you DO NOT see when standing on the tee....if the changes at Sawgrass are about improving soil, and that improvement allows for firm and fast conditions, so be it....but I think it is WRONG to look at it as Tiger proofing, or "protecting par", because that should be THE LAST thing on their mind when they talk about soil work....

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