[Joel_Stewart]

I was looking at some filings by Wynn Resorts today and noticed this little tidbit at the end;

"Wynn, founded by former Mirage Resorts Chairman Steve Wynn, also said it is developing a long-range master plan to build several waterfront hotels around a lake on the site of a 142-acre golf course behind Wynn Las Vegas. Construction on that project would not begin before 2009, it said."

I think everyone assumed that Wynn would tear up the golf course at some point because the land is just too valuable.  Play it while you can.

[Mike Nuzzo]

What a waste of natural resources to build the course.
Labor, fuel, energy, paper, equipment, ideas...

It should have never been built.

[Evan_Green]

What a waste of natural resources to build the course.
Labor, fuel, energy, paper, equipment, ideas...

It should have never been built.

Ah, but Mike - it was part of the Wynn fanfare in opening the hotel. Mr. Wynn has succeeded in increasing the value of that land by so much ... now when he does his mini Lake Las Vegas on the site of the current course he make that much more $$ ... then I'm sure he'll build another Shadow Creek in the middle of the desert. Thus, I would argue it was a good investment from a pure $$ standpoint.

[redanman]

Welcome to Vegas, home of the disposable ___________ .

[David Wigler]

What a waste of natural resources to build the course.
Labor, fuel, energy, paper, equipment, ideas...

It should have never been built.

Mike,

Some subtle ball busting from an old buddy.

Let's say that I called you and said that I would pay you a $5M design fee to build me a course with a $35M budget for construction.  In addition, I promised to promote the heck out of the course and practically guaranteed that every major land developer in the US who would consider building a golf course in the next five years would play it.  In addition, I told you that if you did a GREAT job, I would pay you another $5M design fee to build me another $35M budget course in five years.  The only caveat to this whole thing was that after six years and upon opening of your second course, I would tear your first course down and build housing on it, would you build it for me?

I cannot fathom an architect who would not.  

[Rick Shefchik]

I guess you could say that any development that is ultimately razed/bulldozed/built over was a waste of money -- except that it employed people, generated revenue, increased the tax base and probably contributed to the appreciation of the worth of the property.

[Robert Thompson]

Apparently the value of land in Vegas has taken a bit of a dip lately, which could delay Mr. Wynn's masterplan....

[Scott Stearns]

guys-if money has to be spent for a good cause, than all of Vegas has been a waste.  i like the Wynn, for entertainment but not its architectural value.  its loss, when it ever happens, will be minimal compared to the loss of Lido, Blue Heron Pines, or a bunch of NLE/soon to be NLEs

[Mike Nuzzo]

Evan,
I hear you and agree in the increased values.
I didn't say it wasn't a good business decision for him.

David,
I'm always open for some busting - as long as it isn't "my fairways aren't demanding enough from the tee".  
First - I would hope that Wynn, the businessman he is, could negotiate better than 14% from TF.
$5MM is a lot - I agree I would not say no today.  But to attain a level that would attract Wynn, I would be a lot more likely to say no.
 
And I wasn't trying to disparge TF for doing so, just Wynn for the waste of resources.

Redan,
I agree LV is a huge waste of resources - makes the course look like a pimple.

Gambling is only worth while if it's poker - your on a party poker cruise - and you come in 14th place.  

Cheers

[Larry_Rodgers]

I was told that land on the strip was going for $20 million per acre. This one of the reasons there is no full length practice range at the Wynn resort.

Even Mr. Wynn's good friend Donald T. would consider a new use for this land.

PS: anyone who actually knew the value of Mr Fazio's & Mr Wynn's is not allowed to talk about it and the $5 million design fee is speculation. $35 million for construction that too is classified information.

[JESII]

I cannot fathom an architect who would not.  

Howard Roark.

[David Wigler]

I was told that land on the strip was going for $20 million per acre. This one of the reasons there is no full length practice range at the Wynn resort.

Even Mr. Wynn's good friend Donald T. would consider a new use for this land.

PS: anyone who actually knew the value of Mr Fazio's & Mr Wynn's is not allowed to talk about it and the $5 million design fee is speculation. $35 million for construction that too is classified information.

Larry,

Why do you think the information is classified?  Wynn put the cost in his 10-k filing as "construction of the new golf course at a budgeted cost of approximately $21.5 million."

Obviously that cost does not include the cost of land acquisition.  He also has it in his 10-k that he will turn the course into Casino space once he meets certain profitability standards.  My scenario for Mike (Who takes a totally unnecessary yet old school cheap shot at me  ) was hypothetical but given the story Wynn put in his book about Fazio and Shadow Creek, I would assume $5M is a heck of a guess.

PS - Wynn acquired his 212 acres upon which the hotel, golf course (137 acres - pretty small footprint for 18 holes) and offices are built on for $317.8M.  Although nowhere near $20M per acre, it is still a staggering $1.5M per acre.

[David Wigler]

First - I would hope that Wynn, the businessman he is, could negotiate better than 14% from TF.
$5MM is a lot - I agree I would not say no today...

Mike,

If you have a minute can you explain what the 14% means?  I do not think I understand.  Are design fees usually tied into the overall cost of the project?  I had always assumed that they were set by the architect as part of the bidding process and independent of the project costs.

[jg7236]

Robert, land hasn't taken a dip here in Las Vegas.  Larry Rodgers is pretty close to what land could cost on Las Vegas Blvd.

A few years back a Lobster restaurant (Rosewood Grill) on Las Vegas Blvd. in front of the Venetian sold for close to $35 million.  The restaurant was tore down for Venetian frontal expansion.  The land was only about .75 of a acre.

The most undesirable land out here in the Las Vegas area is going for close to $750,000.  Great land, most is already bought up, is going for close to $2,000,000 a acre.

A lot of developers are currently starting development in Mesquite, Logandale, Overton, etc.   Eventually one is going to see sprawling sleep communities outside Vegas.  People are going to start communting to town because one won't be able to afford a home in the Las Vegas area.  One will be able to attain a half acre lot home for the low $300,000's but one will have to drive a hour or so to work.

[Michael Dugger]

What is tragic to me is that any architect WOULD take that opportunity, simply because it is that competitive out there.

The exposure, the name recognition, it would be invaluable as far as a successful future in the biz goes.

But that's too much business for my tastes.  Business seems to ruin everything pure.  

 

[Mike Nuzzo]

David,

Yes on the basis of construction.  I've heard numbers that ranged between 6-10% - I assume based on the size of the project.

Kelly Blake Moran has been clear about his dislike of flat % fees.

I bid based on the amount of work required.

[Larry_Rodgers]

David,

Classified is probably the wrong term, I remember signing confidentiality agreements with the project and as you pointed out there are many other places where the construction and design costs may be interpolated from.

Wynn Resorts is able to offer golf on the strip which is something many of the other casino's can not offer. I am sure there is an accountant or marketing person who can answer what the rate of return is by having this unique facility.
 

[David Wigler]

Larry,

You were involved in the project - very cool!  I am a huge Steve Wynn and Tom Fazio fan.  I would love to hear more about the project.  I have defended Shadow Creek for years on the site.  I have not played the new course but have seen the property from the hotel.  It looks much more compressed than the other.  Send me an IM if you are not violating your confidentiality.  I would love to know what your involvement was.

[Jonathan Cummings]

David - I too have always loved SC.  I played Wynn in Jan and if SC is a 9, Wynn is a 5.  Skip it.  TF's Primm courses are better than Wynn.

JC

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