[mike_malone]

 Shouldn't they be mostly barren ground rather than transplanted even foreign looking "green"?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

What is your point?  Are you saying that it would be better if the area was left as desert rather than creating a golf course?  What do you want the people of Arizona to do, sit inside and read your GCA.com posts?  I think it perfectly acceptable that they develop golf courses and residential developments for people that want them.  While it is clear that you do not like desert golf, it is abundantly clear that others do.  But you question this as an abomination?  The issue does not merit such hyperbole.

Your argument has fundamental flaws throughout.  Was it wrong to develop golf on the rolling hills of Pennsylvania?  Is it wrong to convert dairy farms to golf?  Is it wrong to alter the pristeen sand hills of Nebraska?  What about the coast of California and Oregon?  By your narrow outlook we should return the coastal land occupied by Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes, etc to their former state since disturbing the land is anathema to golf architecture.  Outside the links land, that's what's been going on for more than 100 years.  So your concentration on desert golf makes no sense at all.  Just tell us you don't like the look of the courses and be done with it.  By the way, save Desert Forest and a few others, I agree--they aren't my cup of tea.  But I respect others that like it and I don't think it any kind of abomination at all.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   I asked a question because I wanted to get some feedback. If I knew the answer I wouldn't bother asking. I come on this site to test my views more often than pontificating on them. I think Forrest's statement about the integration into the desert is a good response.

     I think the people of Arizona should be required to stay inside and watch Arizona play in the NCAA's


  The difference between the green and the desert is jarring to me. If the other courses and areas you mentioned were the same I would wonder about golf as a reasonable use of that land as well.

[Forrest Richardson]

Jim — Hillary Lunke played well. Putting has been off. It was cold and wet, so I would not be able to give much more description of her game than that. As far as attitude: she is, as I said, a delight. Her father caddied for her and one can tell there is a strong bond. Good family and values at play.

Evan — Try 800,000 gallons at peak summer use. But...as I mentioned, a majority of desert courses now use effluent. So I fail to see a point in water use. At least for newer courses. Regardless, watering golf courses returns water to its origin — the acquifer. Unlike parking lots, rooftops, roads, and developed areas...where water runs-off, never to seep downward at that spot — ever again.

Peter — The dunesland of most Irish courses is unplayable because the grasses grow so lush. While the dunesland of a majority of Scottish courses is less intense and therefore playable. I like both of these countries and their links golf — I avoid hitting into either of the broken ground areas.

Talking stick is on flat, plains desert of the Phoenix Valley. Superstition Mountain, Desert Mountain, Legend Trail, etc. are on higher desert with craggy rocks and ravines. Hence the playability issue of each. One is forgiving between fairways, while the other is almost a sure penalty. Bill Coore moved plenty of dirt to create Talking Stick. Jack Nicklaus II did not move too much to create Lost Gold at Superstition Mountain. I think there are values to each site and the approaches to build them.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

If it wasn't for Villanova, the people of Arizona might just stay indoors and watch Arizona play in the NCAAs.

"I have previously decided never to play one of these courses. Now I have decided never to watch one on TV."

Sounds like your mind is already made up and the question of abomination a rhetorical one.


"The difference between the green and the desert is jarring to me. If the other courses and areas you mentioned were the same I would wonder about golf as a reasonable use of that land as well."

While I've never played a desert course (except in Aruba) I suspect that the feel of the courses is much different on site rather than sitting in your Barcalounger.  It probably isn't as shocking in person as it is on TV from elevated cameras.

[Jason Topp]

In Tucson, you will usually only find grass in lawns in older neighborhoods.  It is generally looked down upon to have grass because of how unnatural it is there.  As transplanted Iowans, our family disliked it at first, but came to understand and endorse the view after some time.

The difference between desert and golf course certainly is stark, although I would submit that the difference between the grass and the surrounding terrain at Wild Horse and Sand Hills is no less stark.

I do not know whether or not it is an abomination.  Nonetheless, I enjoy the courses.

[Ted Kramer]

No, I've played a lot and I'm one of their greatest critics, but they are not at all abominations  They do get tiresome on a steady diet.  They don't generally come out as great.  One might think as a completely manufactured course they might occasionally be great, but most of it is just giggle scenery golf.

It is like any golf, loads of fun, but great architecture is pretty rare.

So here's another opportunity for Ted to jump on me!  

The only jumping I'll do here is, jumping up and down in agreement with you. . .

-Ted

[George Pazin]

Haven't read anyone else's responses yet, but, yes, desert courses are an abomination.

 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Desert courses are........just different, that's all. Just like links courses are different than parkland courses. Some courses, whether they be desert,links, mountain or parkland, have more architectural interest than others. C'est la vie. I like some desert courses just as I like some parkland courses here in PA. I don't like every parkland or desert course I play. I expect that if Mike ever visited AZ or other desert golf venues he just might like a course or two or three...

[Peter Pallotta]

Forrest, thanks for your reasoned responses.
Maybe I'd say that golf in the desert is an 'aberration'.  
I mean, I COULD play basketball on an ice-hockey rink (by nailing sections of plywood to the ice here and there, in the key perhaps and just outside the three point line) but it would still be an aberration.  
Peter

[Forrest Richardson]

I think the analogy is better this way:

You could play hockey on an ice rink in an indoor arena...rather than on a frozen lake. One does not necessarily make for better hockey.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday Malone,

I think you have to differentiate between:

Resort course
Residential community courses
Hotel courses, and
Private golf courses not affiliated with any of the above.

Each of the above caters to a select market.

If you focused on private golf courses your opinion might change.

[wsmorrison]

I think your last response was well presented, Forest.

Patrick, lessons are not always lost on Mike Malone.  I appreciate the frustrating efforts you make on his behalf  

[redanman]

The difference between the green and the desert is jarring to me. If the other courses and areas you mentioned were the same I would wonder about golf as a reasonable use of that land as well.

"Jarring"? you need to get past that mayday.

Are you really worried about the land and water use?  Seriously? Since when do you drive a Prius?

Desert golf is great fun, but very little of it, even the best privates (Desert Forest is repetitive, Desert Highlands is over the top hard for some, Desert Mountain is ill concieved with 6 courses by the same architect, Weiskop is well, Weiskopf and his inherent limitations ) is only so good or interesting architecturally.  

I say "so what"?  One really good positive thing is no real problem with stupid trees.

[Jerry Kluger]

I'm still wondering how you deal with the fact that for various reasons you are not to go into the desert and play your ball.  At times this makes me feel that desert golf is like playing every hole with water on both sides of the fairway which is not fun.  Perhaps this is what Forest was trying to deal with in his earlier post.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Firstly, you can play out of the desert. Many players here maintain a "desert club", which is typically an old 6- or 5-iron that is dented and marred. I find that interesting — much like the old implement clubs in museums. Some were created to hit out of "watery filth" and ditches.

I find no real difference from having dense love grass along fairways (Ireland, e.g.) and having the broken ground of the native Sonoran Desert. Both are natural landscapes, all be them in different parts of the world.

For golf not to have migrated would be a silly happening indeed.

[Jerry Kluger]

Forrest: Believe me when I tell you that I look forward to my annual trip to Arizona which will begin on April 7 and will include playing the Gold Course at Wigwam.  I have been told at times that you shouldn't go into the desert because of an environmental regulation of some sort and I have also been told to stay out because of the rattlers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, lessons are not always lost on Mike Malone.  

I appreciate the frustrating efforts you make on his behalf  

Wayne,

Rumor has it that my custodial, trustee and guardianship services may expand and become available to those residing in the greater Philadelphia area, thus, Mayday may soon join TEPaul as one of my wards.

Where is Dr Katz when you need him ?

[Forrest Richardson]

Jerry — Understand that The Wigwam is not a desert layout in any way shape or form. It is a parkland course — quite refreshing for many who visit Arizona to play golf!

[George Pazin]

My disagreement with most desert courses is the harsh edge which runs along the fairways. I prefer a meandering edge defined when irrigation is left to run wherever it may. Arthur Jack Snyder's original work at The Boulders is the best I ever saw. So, too, was Desert Forest (Red Lawrence). But Desert Forest is slowly being adjusted with that harder edge that is so typical of most desert courses.

This is a really interesting observation, and would probably go a long way toward describing what I like least about desert courses. In fact, it's probably what I like least about most courses! Too much detailing on the maintenance side. I muhc prefer the older Augusta photos, where it didn't look like they were employing a few thousand people to remove every stray piece of grass.

Are there currently any courses in the Phoenix area that are designed/maintained more to your standards, Forrest?

P.S. I hope you can play out of the desert, otherwise someone is going to give me a good excuse for all those chunks taken out of my 7 iron.

[Forrest Richardson]

Desert Forest, Talking Stick and Apache Stronghold are good examples. Most everything else is irrigated with part circle heads along the edges. Most all courses actually edge their fairways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest Richardson,

I would imagine that most people are surprised, if not shocked, when they first see Wigwam.

It's certainly not what one would expect when visiting the desert, and shouldn't be categorized with the others.

[Ryan Farrow]

Its surprising how many parkland courses there are in Arizona. It is usually an older course though. Another nice non-desert course is Ocotillo. There is water everywhere and plenty of trees. It almost felt as though I was in Florida, just without the 90% humidity.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ocotillo has 27-miles — yes miles — of shoreline. Complements of Ted Robinson, Sr.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Desert golf is a nice change of pace, but like R-man I would not like a steady diet of the stuff.  As has been pointed out there are desert courses and then there are courses in the desert.

It will be interesting to see what C&C come up with at We-ko-pa.

I played all 27 holes at Octotillo and about half way we had this deja vu feeling that we had already played that hole before.

I have an old 6 iron that I take with me on trips to Arizona for those desert shots.

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