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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mounting evidence...
« on: March 19, 2006, 02:42:03 PM »
While I haven't posted on the individual separate threads of Philip Gawith that show 3 of Doak's courses on Philip's NZ./Aus. tour, I think the photographic evidence has become indisputable.  

Doak has risen to the king of modern architects.

Combine that with the photos we've seen of Doak's other works in the last 7-8 years, and I can't make a case for any other architect working today, as much as I would like to also give many others their due.  

First, I must admit that I have made an exagerated statement because I actually have not played any of Doaks top creations. You will say that one can't make such statements from photos.  

While I think that is a valid point when someone is evaluating the work of an archie while only examining pictures of a course or two of that archie's work, I am speaking of the constant flow of photographic depictions and gushing praise of course after course of Renaissance's works that we have been treated to here on GCA.com.

I generally believe that one must play a course (and several times) to make bold pronouncements.  Personally, I have to resign myself to the reality that I will probably not get to play much of this world-wide, vast body of work that Renaissance has turned out.  Yet, a broad participating group of people on GCA.com have consistently and frequently posted photos and high compliments of Doak's world-wide works, and they are consistent in their praise and depictions of Doak's courses.

I like to consider a few other archies friends and valued acquaintences.  It is a pity that many other talented archies haven't gotten as many opportunities as Doak to work on so many and such spectacular sites.  Yet, Doak has worked one course at a time to build a reputation that slowly placed him on the radar of the most bold and visionary golf course developers.

I don't want to be a shill or sycophant for anyone.  But, when we consider that Doak and his Renaissance team probably have ~20 years of productive time ahead of them, it becomes a stunning prospect.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 02:53:43 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 02:46:54 PM »
Dick:

Thanks sincerely, but just take this down, I'm begging you.

If The Confidential Guide was intended to say anything, it was to say that nobody is king in this business.  We build courses one at a time and that's the only way they should be judged.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2006, 03:01:42 PM »
Sorry Tom, but GCA.com doesn't allow one to delete the first post on a thread.  I modified it a bit, but I'm afraid you'll just have to live with this burden of creating a reputation for your firm's work.  And I'm glad if you feel a bit of unease at the statement.  It means you can be humble.

I'm sure someone will enter a post that disputes what I have said or the way I said it.  Your's is probably only the first of such.  But, I'll hang back to defend what I have said after others weigh in.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2006, 03:02:41 PM »
RJ - I think GCA has a number of kings today - Tom has produced awesome work, but he's certainly not the only one.

We are in a new Golden Age, and we should appreaciate all the great work that's going on.


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2006, 03:30:24 PM »
Sorry Tom, but GCA.com doesn't allow one to delete the first post on a thread.  

RJ.,

Where did you find this bit of arcana?

If memory serves me correctly I have done it before.

Bob

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2006, 04:17:02 PM »
Bob,
   If there is a way I would like to know, because I have asked for information before and once I received it have sought to delete my post but was unable to. You can delete a reply, but not an actual thread as far as I know.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2006, 04:28:17 PM »
Dick,
   Tom is certainly producing some great work, but there are many others who are producing some outstanding work. I just hope that as Doak, DeVries, Hanse, et al continue to gain prominence over the next ten years that they will continue to provide a decent sampling of their work on the public side, so that the masses can see what great architecture can be.
   I really hope to see another great project out of Todd Eckenrode after the wonderful work he did at Barona Creek. The lead time on some of these projects with environmental stuff, etc... can lead to a slow to no public awareness of how good some of the work these guys are doing.
    I am suprised to still see articles talking about "bankable" architects that don't include Doak, C&C and others on a regular basis. As much as we know about and admire these guys work, apparently the majority of golfers don't. I sure hope the coming ten years change that.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 04:28:52 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2006, 06:14:13 PM »
Ed,

Let's go the the source and ask Ran.

Bob

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2006, 07:11:40 PM »
Dan and Ed, your posts are what I was hoping to see.  And, I certainly agree that there are a number of GC architects out there with great talent, perhaps equal to Tom's.

But, one thing I am getting at is the mounting evidence in terms of the stream of continuing brilliant work that Renaissance is putting out is that I think there is a consensus forming (even through mere pictures and words) that there is a new top architect.  

Then, when you consider how many outstanding sites may still be left for other highly talanted architects to get a crack at, and the velocity that I believe Doak is gaining in world wide reputation for him to get first serious consideration for those limitted sites, I just think Doak has risen to a sort of lead figure - dominant force in the field.  That makes him the King in my view.

As Tom mentions, they still look at their efforts as building one great course at a time to be evaluated on their own individual merits.  And, they look at other architects efforts as one at a time as well.  But, for every rare one great site that many of the other talented archies are getting a crack at, Tom's reputation ( IMO ) is garnering a stream of multiple opportunities.  With scarcity of opportunity sites, and his momentum, I think that makes Renaissance the dominant quality producer.  Not THE "one and only" quality producer, but the category leader.

It seems that probably Fazio, or JN are still the go-to guys for the big commercial projects that need marketing of things beyond the golf course.  They may be kings of the big multiple-use and ammenity laden products to be marketted.  But, those developers and consumers I look to as being the golf architecture conoscenti, seem to know that Doak is now the real go-to guy for the high quality golf design work at this juncture, and in the forseeable future.

I think that has all sorts of implications in the industry and the future of the art/craft arena of golf course architecture.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kyle Harris

Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2006, 07:15:06 PM »
In order to delete the thread, we would all have to delete our individual posts until the initial one was left. I'll delete this one last.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2006, 07:23:41 PM »
Every one of YOUR OWN posts has 'quote', 'modify' and 'delete' buttons in the top right corner.

Would that some people used them more often!
 ;D

(Including me!)

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

CHrisB

Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2006, 07:32:25 PM »
Dick,

Who has Doak replaced as king?
Who was the king during the first Golden Age of golf design?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2006, 07:51:42 PM »
Chris, maybe the first go-to guy was "Old Tom" ;)  ...perhaps followed by Colt, and MacKenzie.  

"Modern Tom" seems to be replacing Pete Dye on the throne as a natural progression of time, and his own apprenticeship with Mr. Dye.  C&C are princely in their own modern outstanding efforts.  But, as a dynamic field of practitioners of GCA, I think the velocity and consistency of widely acclaimed successes along with  growing recognition is lifting Renaissance, and it seems to me to be accelerating.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mounting evidence...
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2006, 09:01:36 PM »
About Mr, Doak.

Forget ranking! Forget the great stuff he has done with some wonderful sites lately. They surely speak for themselves.

HIS WORK AT STONEWALL LEFT A LASTING IMPRESSION ON ME!

The illusion at Stonewall is truly remakable. I have never been so confused by the speeds anywhere, and how to attack them. Fooled despite my high golf IQ (lol)!  Whether I had the ability to play the shot or not, I could surely figure it out, but not here.  First you think you are chipping straight uphill; you aren't', Then the pitch is downhill and lightning, sorry wrong again!  When it looks like you should miss left,watch out, the short side bunker is the easier par. Truly an ingenious design..

For me, this may be his best work.

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