[TEPaul]

"If the 18th green at GCGC was substituted for the 13th green at NGLA it would be a better hole."

Patrick:

Maybe so. I don't know the 18th at GCGC well enough to compare them intelligently. But they aren't going to be substituted so what's your point other than to somehow rationalize softening #13?

"If you agree with that premise then you should support the softening of the rear shoulder, excluding for a minute, the domino theory"

Again, that statement is a real attempt to rationalize altering #13 and there's no purpose whatsoever to exclude your domino theory for a minute, a month, a year or ever.

I'm pretty certain Macdonald knew GCGC pretty well and if he wanted to make a hole at NGLA like the 18th at GCGC then he probably would've done so, but he didn't. Therefore none of us should try to do it today, even a little bit.

My suggestion for #13 if they think the rear section is too severe is to slow down the green speed a bit. I never found it too severe and I've been playing it at green speeds that're probably as fast as they get there.

Furthermore, having thought about the green expansion for a while, my take is if Macdonald did not have green space there or he removed it and put that bunker in there then the club should have left the hole the way Macdonald left it. Changing that hole from the way he left it is an example of your domino theory. Where is it going to stop? As you sometimes say---you can't have it both ways. I'm for the restoration of the way Macdonald left that golf course, nothing more. It was his legacy and that legacy should be restored and then preserved, permanently.

If one really does believe in true restoration and then true preservation, one can hardly find a better example in America to do it than Macdonald's NGLA. Is there a more significant course and architecture in the entire evolution of golf architecture in America? Probably not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You can't slow down one green to the exclusion of all others.

I don't know what the reasonable speed limit on the 13th green is.  I don't know at what rate the green would have to putt in order to bring the high rear shoulder and the green immediately below it into play.  

It might be worth the effort to find out.

[Punchbowl]

TEPAUL,
Jack didn't put in the berms on #11...Those were put in by the club because of the increased traffic on the road.  After the berms were in, Jack suggested that the club raise the right side of the fairway so that players would not necessarily have a blind second shot if they hit a good drive.  As I am sure Mr. Doak can attest to...Jack does not like blind shots.  Jack apparently had them shave down a mound in front of a par 3 at Sebonack to get rid of the potential blind aspect of that hole.

[TEPaul]

Gil:

Thanks for that. George B said as much on this thread. But now, for the #64,000 question. Perry Maxwell apparently did something at NGLA. Do you know what THAT was?

By the way, when you design something into holes that's even close to blindness do you think you look for the guy who's 5'5" as well as for the guy who's 6'5"? Just wondering if you look at it both ways you actually get down on your knees to look for the 5'5" guy.  

[Punchbowl]

Well...How tall is Jack?  I think the 5'5" guy is out of luck.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPAUL,
Jack didn't put in the berms on #11...Those were put in by the club because of the increased traffic on the road.  After the berms were in, Jack suggested that the club raise the right side of the fairway so that players would not necessarily have a blind second shot if they hit a good drive.  As I am sure Mr. Doak can attest to...Jack does not like blind shots.  Jack apparently had them shave down a mound in front of a par 3 at Sebonack to get rid of the potential blind aspect of that hole.

Punchbowl,

This is a classic case of an architect trying to impose his will, ego and design principles on an established, spectacular golf course.

NGLA is all about blind shots.

You have them on almost every hole.

The problem was Nicklaus's status in the golf world when he made the suggestion, and NGLA's blind acceptance of his suggestion.

[George_Bahto]

Patrick: right on!!

[Punchbowl]

The second shot on 11 was not blind before the berms went in for safety reasons in the 80's.  So raising the fairway was really just to bring it back to what it was before.

[TEPaul]

Sorry Punchbowl, I thought you were Gil. Guess not since he's on a plane to Denver and JW is on a bulldozer around here.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Punchbowl,

Are you positive that the green was visible from the lower left fairway prior to the insertion of the berms ?

Did you play the hole before the berms ?

TEPaul,

I have another project for you after you get done moving the gates 50 yards north.

Remove the berms, lower the road.

[Punchbowl]

It's still not visible from the lower left...what was raised was the right side.

I did play it before.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I have another project for you after you get done moving the gates 50 yards north.
Remove the berms, lower the road."  

Pat:

Let's just build a tunnel and then there won't be any road at all.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Punchbowl,

One has to wonder why only the right side of the fairway was raised.

Was it a concession to golfers who played a pronounced fade ?

I wonder why Nicklaus didn't recommend raising the entire fairway rather than just the right side, or if he did recommend raising the entire fairway, why NGLA just raised the right side.

What's your take on it ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't know about you but I like the way the fairway on #11 is with the berms on both sides of the roads. Blindness and visibility are available on that fairway right now but strategically they are kind of upside down, which frankly I think is pretty interesting. If you bomb one down near the berm you're blind if your on the left and probably blind too if you are near the berm on the right but you do have visibility if you lay back some on the right. If you do that, however, you have a longer shot in.

I think it's pretty cool as it is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'd agree, I think the berms place an emphasis on position off the tee.

There are locations, back further, that give the golfer a look at the green.  Longer drives tend to have blind approaches to a triple tiered plateau green that usually plays downwind.

Hitting to, and remaining on the far left tier when the hole plays downwind is a challenge no matter what club you use when approaching the green.

It's a neat hole made better, although slightly disorienting, by the removal of the trees on the left.  Thank goodness for the chimney.

I understand that Trip Kuehne drove it over the road

[TEPaul]

"I understand that Trip Kuehne drove it over the road"

So what? Who cares?

It's too bad the club didn't have alternate scorecards available (as I've suggested)  listing the golf course as a par 70 for Kuehne. #5, #7, #18 would be fairly decent par 4s for him.  

Actually Trip Kuehne is chopped liver in distance these days. Nebraska's Long John Hurley (highest ball speed the USGA has ever seen in person) could make mince-meat out of Kuehne distance-wise. I still have all my notes from Merion and PCC on what Hurley used everywhere so if you'd like I'll tell you how he'd play NGLA if he went after it all day with a driver (and hit it straight).

My observation was that he's ultra long anyway but about 2-3 times a round he really gets everything coming together and it can get pretty scary--eg in the neighborhood of 400 yards. I saw 400 yards once in Nebraska and once in Philly.

[wsmorrison]

I know you are serious about alternate scorecards and reducing par for championship golfers.  After all, at 6870 yards or whatever, there's no way that is a par 73 anymore with the length and par distributions we face today.  

Given that there are presently only four par 5 holes; 5,7 and 9 on the front and 18 on the back.  Do you really think only one par 5 (9) is appropriate?  I don't always stick to convention, but if there were to be two par 5s, which of 5,7 and 18 would you select?  Would you want one on each nine thus necessitating 18 as a par 5?

I don't know the course nearly well enough, but I would hazard to say 9 and 18 as par 5s with 5 and 7 (both 478 yards) as par 4s would be fine resulting in a par 71.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Definitely #18. But a guy like Hurley wouldn't need to hit much more than 7 iron in there from the tips anyway. And on #9 his tee shot would still be about 30 ft in the air as it passed over the cross bunkers.

There is absolutely no point whatsoever trying to design or set a course up to realistic par 5s for a guy like that. It simply won't work no matter what they do.

[wsmorrison]

No way should any club consider setting up their course for a guy like John.  How many golfers are there in the world?  20 million?  He's one in 20 million, that's for sure!

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Apparently the Sieckman Test Center in Omaha thought there couldn't be more than ten people in the world who could hit a ball that hard.

John looks in on this site now and again and I get the occasional email from him with updates on how he's coming along.

Do you know what the young lad did? He broke his wrist playing basketball.

I told him he sure as hell better not start up too soon and he oughta strengthen that wrist even past what it used to be because if he doesn't he might find it hard to generate the kind of power he's used to again and someone will sneak up on him and pass him.

My feeling with him is if he can get his short iron approach ability even remotely in the neighborhood of how impressive his length is we will all be hearing a lot about him fairly soon.

[Punchbowl]

Interesting factoid.......After Nicklaus played the National for the first time....what do you think his favorite hole was?

[mike_malone]

Cape?

[TEPaul]

I can't imagine but whatever one it was I bet it was  "framed" at the green-end somehow.  

But thinking through the holes of NGLA I can't imagine what that would be. My guesses would probably be either #4, #6, #8 or #17.

This story appeared on this website back maybe around 1999 and I bet it's apocryphal, but the story was;

Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus were at Mid Ocean (I think it was) and Pete was going on and on about Charles Blair Macdonald and Jack turned to Pete and said; "Who's Charles Blair Macdonald?"

[Punchbowl]

It was Bottle...#8

[RJ_Daley]

Do you know what the young lad did? He broke his wrist playing basketball.

Yikes!  If I was young Hurley's coach or Dad, the closest I'd let him get to a contact sport is a box seat in the stands!

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