you've got 1 round left: Pacific Dunes or Pebble?

[Mike Hendren]

So, it's the annual dog-pile on Pebble Beach thread.  How predictable.  

Paul T suggests that nos. 1 and 2 are "lame."  Two may no longer be challenging enough for the modern game, but it is one of the most elegant, classical golf holes I've laid eyes on - a good 3 to 7 hole without the gimmickry.  Funny, IMHO, the opener at Cypress Point Club (America's greatest golf course according to Golfweek) is no better and the second is a push as well, though the tee shot at Cypress' 2nd is one of my favorites in golf.  

I don't give Pebble any mega-props for the 18th either - maybe the most overrated golf hole in the country once you walk off the tee.  Visually, I found it more disappointing than the oft-maligned 17th.  

That said, in my limited travels I have not played a golf course better than Pebble Beach.  The greens are ingenious and well-crafted.  The golf holes are gently draped on the land.  The degree of difficulty ebbs and flows throughout the routing.  I am, however glad I played there before the abdomination that now dots the 15th fairway.  

FWIW, I paid retail.

Wonder how many would pick Cypress Point Club over Pacific Dunes?

This I know, this thread really makes me want to get to  Bandon if Pacific Dunes is in the same league.  

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

You do need to get to Bandon, as I do believe Pacific Dunes is in the same league.  BUT... the Baltimore Orioles are also in the same league as the New York Yankees.  That's pretty analagous here.

I would pick Cypress Point over Pacific Dunes no question - but that can't surprise you - I'd pick it over Pebble as well.  I'm sure you want to know how many of these guys who choose PD over PB would change their answer if it was Cypress... that would be interesting, for sure.

In any case re PB, I'm not sure how you can call it overrated "once you walk off the tee", nor why that matters.   You don't find the second/third shots intriguing with the ocean crashing to your left?  My you have become jaded.    In any case, couldn't you say this about damn near every hole?  That is, take away it's best feature and it's overrated?  Not sure what the point is there, mi amigo.

Rich - Yahoo! has been good for me in oh so many ways.  

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

The hole on the ground is just not as good as the one viewed from the blimp.  I was surprisingly underwhelmed.  If I could move the ball from right to left I might feel differently.

It's not the hole. It's me.

As you know I've played CPC and PB once each.  I'd go with PB on the next trip out there.  In 10 rounds it's 5/5.

Lest we all forget, it is a great privilege to play either course.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Great point re the privilege.  It sure as hell ought not to be taken for granted.

Re 18, well... as a left-to righter it must not "match the eye", as they say.

 

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   Nice try regarding Pebble Beach, but Bill sums it up pretty well. Besides who wants to explain what Pacific Dunes is and why it is a great course. Even non-golfers know Pebble Beach exists, and I think that is the greatest reason the course remains crowded.
  I think Pebble is great, but I just prefer Pacific for my game and the more interesting things going on around the greens. Being a bumper of the ball around the greens instead of a flopshot guy also factors in to my preference.

[Ted Kramer]

I thought Pacific Dunes was incredible. I'll definitely go back to Bandon for golf before Monterey. With that being said, I'd take Pebble for my last round. And for the record:

18th at Pebble - all world, no question about it.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - if you think at Pebble there is less going on around the greens - and on the greens - methinks you really need to examine the Pebble greens more closely.  Also, the ground game works VERY well there - no flop shots necessary - in fact none would be recommended...

This is interesting - I thought subtle greens would be right up your alley.

TH

[redanman]

Huck

To paraphrase Jack (having said it of another course) Pebble would make a nice member's course.

18th at Pebble - all world, no question about it.

-Ted

all-world experience?  Certainly not all world golf.

Has Pete Dye ever built one of his trademarked 18ths as a par 5?  If so, it would be all solar system , because he builds better green complexes than at PB.  Just think TPC Sawgrass + 100 yds.

p.s. I really love doing this every 3 months...

[Tom Huckaby]

That's cool.  I kinda like nice members' courses.
 

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  I'm not saying Pebble is necessarily a flop shot recovery course. What I'm saying is I don't have a flop shot. I do better bumping the ball around as you saw at Callippe. If you ever see me hit a short shot and the ball goes higher than my waist, it was an accident.
    Pebble's greens are subtle, but they are quite small, so even though the breaks are tricky to pick up sometimes (#13 green stands out in my memory), I don't think it is as hard to get the ball in the hole there (other than the greens being somewhat bumpy).
   #8 PB alone is enough for me to think hard before choosing another course over Pebble in these exercises.
    One other factor to keep in mind is that Pebble Beach is a little towards the tough end of the spectrum, with small greens to boot, for a guy like me who is erratic to say the least.
     So I still choose Pacific, but I certainly can understand others choosing PB.
     One other thing is that even if the golf is free and the course is empty PB still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This may not still be true, but when I went there with my brother years ago they made it feel like I should be thanking them to be allowed to give them my money. I really dislike arrogance, and they exuded it when I played there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - re the emotional factors, hell that's understood.  I just have as many reasons for liking it as you do for disliking it, given the one round with my Dad (read back).

And all the rest is fine - I just still do think you've assessed the greens incorrectly, if you think it's tougher to get the ball in the hole there than at PD...

We'll have to go there and chip and putt sometime.

 

[Ted Kramer]

Huck

To paraphrase Jack (having said it of another course) Pebble would make a nice member's course.

18th at Pebble - all world, no question about it.

-Ted

all-world experience?  Certainly not all world golf.

Has Pete Dye ever built one of his trademarked 18ths as a par 5?  If so, it would be all solar system , because he builds better green complexes than at PB.  Just think TPC Sawgrass + 100 yds.

p.s. I really love doing this every 3 months...

I might be the only one, but the arguement between all-world golf and all-world experience is laughable to me. . .

It is often possible to confuse and obfiscate the truth about something by presenting a bunch of semi-related but largely extraneous data. . . most good liars/manipulators are experts.(I'm not calling you a liar or manipulator, I'm  just making a point)

Are you familiar with any non-western philosophy? Have you ever read anything about Zen Buddhism? Many non-westerners consider first hand experience to be the only truth in this world.

I tend to agree with that line of thought more than the type of reasoning/logic that you so often use . . .the ultra dry, and in my opinion, relatively useless examination of various details in an effort to define artistry. If you want to use that logic to examine a beating heart, define the economy, launch a space shuttle, etc. I'll be right there behind you. I just don't see any validity to using that aproach to define or understand things like beauty, artistry, experience, etc.

I define golf courses and golf holes based on the real world experience of playing them. So much is lost when your try to break something like the 18th hole at Pebble beach down into small details in an effort to define and describe it.

Can a golf hole be greater than the sum of its parts?

Can a painting or sculpture be judged in the same detailed manner that you use in your effort to judge or "rate" golf courses/holes by? Don't we consider GCA to be an art form? Why do you think that you can find any reality in GCA by reducing golf holes to their smallest details in an effort to define them? Couldn't something very real be lost in that "bottoms up" type exploration.

-Ted

[Craig Van Egmond]

I would pick Pebble Beach only because I have not yet played there and I have played Pacific Dunes 4 times.  

[Jason Blasberg]

I think a better question is if you could only play one golf course for the rest of your life, which would you play, for me it's hands down Pacific Dunes.

More variety, ground game firmer and faster and more interesting greens (IMO).  

If you've not played either and had only one round to play, Pebble might be it for the history alone.  

 

[Tim Pitner]

Can a golf hole be greater than the sum of its parts?

Absolutely, just like a golf course can be greater than the sum of its parts.  I happen to think this is the case with Bandon Dunes.  If you analyze it in terms of great golf holes, it may come up short.  But, in addition to obvious holes like 4 and 5, I think holes like 1, 7, 8, 11 and 14 are really enjoyable to play.  More to the point, I have never walked off Bandon thinking that I wanted more.  A similar analysis can be applied to golf holes.

While I expressed skepticism that Pebble No. 18 is as good as reputed, I sincerely was hoping someone would explain the case for its greatness.  Perhaps this has been discussed before, but I haven't heard anyone address this yet.  

[Ted Kramer]

I think a better question is if you could only play one golf course for the rest of your life, which would you play, for me it's hands down Pacific Dunes.

More variety, ground game firmer and faster and more interesting greens (IMO).  

If you've not played either and had only one round to play, Pebble might be it for the history alone.  

 

I agree.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason B:

Though I keep lobbying for Pebble, I made a similar argument to yours right at the beginning.  Just remember this question is ONE final round.

Tim:

Here's my case for PB18 as a great golf hole:

1.  Fantastic tee shot - trees in center complicate things, as does OB right - how bold are you>?  Need to hug the coast if you're gonna have any chance to get there in two.

2. 2nd shot - if you've succeeded on the drive, you can get there, and it is one hell of a hard shot with ocean left, sand/tree/OB right.  If not, the layup is not as simple as it seems - you need to stay left so as not to be blocked by greenside tree - and there's a lot of death too far left.

3.  Approach - no matter where it comes in from, it's very interesting.  Bunker slopes away on greenside, complicating things.  Ocean left.  Can't go along -dead.

4.  Green - very subtle, misread all the time.

Notice I didn't even mention the views, nor the history?  Factor those in and it's case closed.

 

[Tim Pitner]

Tom, thank you.  

I'm not sure I'm convinced, but you certainly put forth a worthy effort.  

[redanman]

I might be the only one, but the arguement between all-world golf and all-world experience is laughable to me. . .

It is often possible to confuse and obfiscate the truth about something by presenting a bunch of semi-related but largely extraneous data. . . most good liars/manipulators are a experts.(I'm not calling you a liar or manipulator, I'm  just making a point)

Are you familiar with any non-western philosophy? Have you ever read anything about Zen Budhism? Many non-westerners consider first hand experience to be the only truth in this world.

I tend to agree with that line of thought more than the type of reasoning/logic that you so often use . . .the ultra dry, and in my opinion, relatively useless examination of various details in an effort to define artistry. If you want to use that logic to examine a beating heart, define the economy, launch a space shuttle, etc. I'll be right there behind you. I just don't see any validity to using that aproach to define or understand things like beauty, artistry, experience, etc.

I define golf courses and golf holes based on the real world experience of playing them. So much is lost when your try to break something like the 18th hole at Pebble beach down into small details in an effort to define and describe it.

Can a golf hole be greater than the sum of its parts?

Can a painting or sculpture be judged in the same detailed manner that you use in your effort to judge or "rate" golf courses/holes by? Don't we consider GCA to be an art form? Why do you think that you can find any reality in GCA by reducing golf holes to their smallest details in an effort to define them? Couldn't something very real be lost in that "bottoms up" type exploration.

-Ted

(I don't do the color thing ..... so pay attention to what goes where)

oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm

oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm

oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm

Calm down Ted!

First off I am hurt very deeply that you didn't comment on my juxtaposition of the parts of TPC Sawgrass #18 with the parts of PBGLŽ #18.  LOL

Some day you may get lucky and you will understand the scientific approach if you keep at it long enough.  You don't need to like or accept or apply it, but understand it.



(And here's a guy from FOX telling me about the truth, half-truths, obsfucation, lies and the liars who tell them? )



The whole idea of identifying quality features and quality holes and quality golf courses and quality experiences is wholly the experience to know the difference.

If you need to care about the experience, so be it.  I don't need Pebble and its scenery to get my jollies, I can get really excited just across the road from my house at the Muni.  I have great experiences all the time, truly great experiences, even on rat-ass munis.

Just remember that everyone has different standards.  Virtually every ***** Golf Digest "Place to Play" is Doak 6's and above.*  Also, please remember that this is a place, perhaps THE place for those of us shallow enough to dissect experience from artistic expression.  I love apearing that shallow, but know that you will likely never find someone more likely than me to have a great time on any golf course that you put me on.

It's like love and lust in a way, each is really nice, but they are differnt things.  I want love AND lust.  But just love is really good.

I love a good experience, but I know the difference between great experiences with great architecture and just great experiences.  

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but I may give my opinion as this is a discussion group.  

*  I am trained as a scientist, first and foremost.  I can however play musical instruments, paint and cook, but I prefer photography and drinking wine.  I am thankful for every day I drag my cranky-ass, broken-down  decrepit body out of bed for another go-round.  I am probably closer to a Buddhist in my approach to life and absolutely cannot stand the hypocrisity of Neo-Conservatism.

And never, ever forget:
A great experience IS greater than the sum of its parts.
Q.E.D.



p.s.  I'd rather do the Sheep Ranch for the last supper than either of the two on the thread.  Experience defined, if you will.  It is what you make of it.

[redanman]

1.  ... .. ...  Need to hug the coast if you're gonna have any chance to get there in two.

(just for the hell of it..)

HOW MANY TIMES AND FROM WHAT TEE HAVE YOU DONE IT?

WHAT MONTH(?S) WAS IT

WAS THERE WIND, WIND, WIND? or just WIND?

WHAT CLUB DID YOU HIT

WHY?

WHAT DID YOU FEEL?



 

[redanman]

Ted

You're a GREAT sport!

Bill

[Ted Kramer]

(I'm not calling you a liar or manipulator, I'm  just making a point)

(And here's a guy from FOX telling me about the truth, half-truths, obsfucation, lies and the liars who tell them? )

 
Well done!!!

-Ted

[Ted Kramer]

Ted

You're a GREAT sport!

Bill

I love a good debate.
And I tend to disagree with just about everything you say . . .
you are my dream come true

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

1.  ... .. ...  Need to hug the coast if you're gonna have any chance to get there in two.

(just for the hell of it..)

HOW MANY TIMES AND FROM WHAT TEE HAVE YOU DONE IT?

WHAT MONTH(?S) WAS IT

WAS THERE WIND, WIND, WIND? or just WIND?

WHAT CLUB DID YOU HIT

WHY?

WHAT DID YOU FEEL?



 

I've played there about a dozen times.  Most were when I was quite young, and so getting there in two was not a possibility - however, getting there in THREE required the same sort of hugging of the coast.  And in later years, I played it into the wind, such that there was a definite advantage to hugging the coast as well... the yardage gain was worth the risk.

One also can't get caught behind the trees....

But to answer your questions:

I never have reached - got very close once, got it right into the neck - if I am ever going to reach, I have to hug the coast for sure.

That rather renders the remaining questions moot, no?

But it doesn't render my point moot at all - for longer hitters than me - and that's the vast majority of decent players with today's equipment - reaching in two is doable, thus the need to hug the coast.  For the rest, the yardage gain still might make it worth the risk, and remember you don't want to get behind the trees in the right center.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Redanman,

In all of the times that I've played Pebble Beach, I've never been paired with a CEO or COO.

I've always been paired with regular folks, people from near and far who have played Pebble Beach previously and loved it, or first timers who've seen it on TV and want to experience it.

At 55,000 rounds a year, they're getting a lot more than CEO's and COO's as patrons.  And, Pebble Beach isn't exactly on the beaten path.

The fact is:  It's a wonderful golf course, with universal appeal.

Long rounds are one of the products of continuous cart paths and cart path only rules.  On my last visit, I played 36 a day, I teed off first everyday and then again last, and never had a problem.  I had great caddies every time.

I also had great caddies at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.