you've got 1 round left: Pacific Dunes or Pebble?

[Andrew Summerell]

Easy choice. Pacific Dunes.

[Tom Huckaby]

I wonder for all of you who don't pick Pebble, have you ever played it sans crowds and sans huge fee?

I have.

The choice really is very simple.  No one round at Pacific Dunes can come close to Pebble in those conditions.  Try to imagine that... and then make the choice.  Maybe you change, maybe you don't. But the assumption is that's how you get it for this final round also, let's keep in mind.

In any case Tim, you do ask a great question re the history, etc.  My answer would be the same as another already given - you can't take that away, so why does this matter?

Re 18, I acknowledge your comments, but such matters not for me - this is all quite spiritual and emotional for me.  Perhaps it is because I live relatively nearby and so many eventful life things have happened there.  But that is the hole I'd want to be my last.

TH

[George Pazin]

I'm kinda hoping my last round is on Jim Urbina's grandson's restoration of Pac Dunes in another 50 years or so.

Actually, I'm hoping I don't even know when my last round is, that's really kind of morbid when you think about it. Plus, I struggle with the pressure of playing with fellow GCAers now, can you imagine how bad I'd play knowing it was my last round?

Huck, when did you play Pebble when it was empty and free? I'm envious.

Back when Deep Impact came out, as I was watching it, I thought, I'd be at Pebble when the tidal wave hit. But after a few brief seconds of reflection, I came to the same conclusion as Brad.

Thankfully, we will have some Hollywood heroes to save us all.

[Jay Flemma]

That aint no choice at all...Bandon

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

Well, it wasn't completely empty, and it wasn't completely free... but my Dad and I did play with no waiting whatsoever - in fact never saw another group - and the fee was the Spanish Bay fee at the time, which under the special deal I had (pre-hotel opening) was $50.

It was rather special.

I've also played Pebble many times when it was crowded, lest you think this one round does bias me too much.  

So for me the choice does remain simple.  As great as PD is, it isn't Pebble Beach.

At first I was surprised so many were picking PD... but then I remembered what room I'm in.  


TH

[Jay Flemma]

Sorry Huck, but I respectfully dissent...Pacific is a much stronger golf course start to finish.

Yes, when I played it, it was free and sans crowd.

[Tim Pitner]

In any case Tim, you do ask a great question re the history, etc.  My answer would be the same as another already given -you can't take that away, so why does this matter?

I guess it might matter because it could reveal that those selecting Pebble over Pacific do so for reasons that have little to do with the golf course per se (e.g., history, proximity to the ocean, etc.).  My own view is that, based solely on the golf course, Pacific blows Pebble away and, further, that it better matches my view of what a golf course ought to look and play like--rugged, natural, linksy.  

Now, if one's preferences are based on personal experiences at the given course (like yours at Pebble), there's nothing someone else can say to change that.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

Well, at least you have the proper frame of reference.

And I would respectfully disagree, although I'm not sure what you mean by "stronger."  In any case it doesn't matter - to me there is no possible measure whereby Pacific is a superior golf course, if you keep things equal in terms of crowd and cost.

Factor those in, and yes, the experience is far better at Pacific.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Remember, we're not asking which is the better golf course, we're asking which is the one at which one would want to play his last round.  How can personal experience/emotions/preferences NOT factor into that?

In any event though, I'd also say Pebble is the superior golf course.  I'd certainly respect those who prefer Pacific, as it is freakin' great and in the end this really is splitting hairs (which if you think about it, is one hell of a testament to Pacific - Tom Doak sure had that right).

So sure, say you prefer Pacific, it fits what you like in golf courses better, whatever.

But Pacific "blows away" Pebble?

That's crazy-talk.

And remember I absolutely love Pacific, and I too prefer the scruffier look.  I just also do very much respect history, and enjoy heroic/majestic golf shots and subtle greens that are exasperating to figure out.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Tom, I understand the question which is an entirely subjective one.  I was just trying to make a point in support of my view that Pacific is a better course or, at minimum, a course that appeals to me more.  BTW, I like to engage in crazy talk every now and then.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - very cool, gotcha.

 

You are far from alone in this preference, btw.  I shudder to think of the response from redanman if he sees this.

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Put me down for Pebble.

I haven't seen Pac Dunes yet, and I intend to go if time and money ever permit, but I loved my two rounds at Pebble Beach and I haven't experienced anything else in golf that compares (Sand Hills and TOC were close.)

I do get a few farewell bumps at the Tap Room, don't I? And can I have a Wild Turkey or two while listening to the jazz trio in the lodge before...gulp...well, you know...?

[Dan Kelly]

I loved my two rounds at Pebble Beach and I haven't experienced anything else in golf that compares (Sand Hills and TOC were close.)

You must have preferred your playing partner at Pebble Beach.  

[Tim Leahy]

I wonder for all of you who don't pick Pebble, have you ever played it sans crowds and sans huge fee?I have.

I have too, and if there is a better second shot in all of golf than #8 at Pebble over the ocean and cliffs I have never seen it. Including history, no contest, Pebble, and how can you play it and not imagine Nicklaus, Watson, Tiger, etc. 's great shots, it would be like walking into Yankee Stadium and not imagining Ruth, Gehrig and Dimagio. No. 18 at Pebble is the best par 5 in the history of golf.

[Tim Pitner]

No. 18 at Pebble is the best par 5 in the history of golf.

Why?  After the tee shot, what does it offer?  It's usually a three shot hole and the layup isn't particularly challenging or interesting.  Please enlighten me.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Sorry Huck, but I respectfully dissent...Pacific is a much stronger golf course start to finish.

Yes, when I played it, it was free and sans crowd.

Jay,

Did you feel that the back nine at Pacific Dunes was somewhat compromised by having four par 3's and three par 5's and only two par 4's  ?

Do you think that the back nine at PD is better than the back nine at PB ?

But, I'm puzzled by something.

Pebble Beach is being knocked because it's very expensive to play, and yet, everyone on here is saying that it's very crowded.   What does that tell you ? ?  ?

Expensive to play, yet golfers flock to it.

Perhaps its got something to do with the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.


Tom Pitner,

How many times have you played the 18th hole at PB ?

And, do you think that Pebble Beach might have had that rugged, natural, linksy look right after it opened for play ?

[Tim Bert]

I have played several rounds at PD.  I haven't played PB.  I would very much like to play PB, and will probably scrape up enough money to go one time, but if we are talking last round ever... I'll take the familiarity of PD over trying to hack my way around a course with which I'm not familiar.

[John Kavanaugh]

I would hate to end my life in the gash in the ground that tries to pass itself off as a bunker next to the 18th green at Pacific Dunes..

[Tim Bert]

Me too, John.  That's why I always miss left on 18 and end up in the real bunker!

[Tim Pitner]

Pebble Beach is being knocked because it's very expensive to play, and yet, everyone on here is saying that it's very crowded.   What does that tell you ? ?  ?

Expensive to play, yet golfers flock to it.

Perhaps its got something to do with the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.

Tom Pitner,

How many times have you played the 18th hole at PB ?

And, do you think that Pebble Beach might have had that rugged, natural, linksy look right after it opened for play ?

Pat, to answer your question, probably not enough times to make an expert evaluation.  But, I've yet to hear anyone articulate why 18 is such a great hole.

Do I think Pebble Beach may have looked different in the past?--I really don't know, but neither do I particularly care.  I'm more interested in comparing the current Pebble to the current Pacific Dunes.

The fact that people flock to Pebble may have less to do with the golf course and more to do with the status of playing Pebble.  Thankfully, that crowd is much less of a factor at Bandon.

[Dan Smoot]

I have never played but have been to Pebble Beach on two occasions (simply too much money).  I have played PD five times.  There is no comparison to me.  Pebble is all about money to me, from the Lodge, to the cost to play, to the very expensive housing located around it.  In spite of the beautiful ocean views at Pebble, those items I mentioned would take away from my experience of playing a great golf course like Pebble.  

At PD, you have equal seaside beauty and no man-made elements to remind you of where you are once you venture away from the clubhouse.  At PD, everything is simple without frills, winding through the dunes and the high ocean grass, in the elements, playing a great golf course with great variety.  No Golf Carts.  Even the clubhouse is quite simple.  Additionally, the conditions at PD favor a different type of game that we in the US rarely get to play - along the ground - which makes for a much more interesting time.  It is just a joyful golfing experience in a fantastic setting.  The statement "Golf as it was meant to be played",  means more to me now than the first time I played there.

[ForkaB]

Huckster

You are correctumundo, yet again!  Must be osmosis from rubbing slide rules with all those geeks at Yahoo.......

Pacific Dunes is a superb golf course which will probably only get better as it matures (and if Mike Keiser lets Tom Doak tweak it from time to time...).  But......Pebble is Pebble is Pebble, as Gertrude Stein once said.

We all have our own private Pebble, even those who have only played it in their dreams.  Mine doesn't include any of Bill McBride's accessories (pleasant as they can be).  I'll die in my follow-through to a solid 6-iron hit from the edge of the chasm on the 8th, probably by a lightning bolt.  If I end up in hell, I'll see it go straight for the flag, land, check and then lip out.  I will be alone.  If I am in heaven, I'll just hit the fat part of the green, two-putt and continue my round with my best friends.....

And, yes, I'll take Pebble for this scenario over Dornoch, any day of the week.

[redanman]

No. 18 at Pebble is the best par 5 in the history of golf.

May I have a toke of that, please?  Maybe a whole bag?  

Completely unsupportable position in a debate.  That is not that interesting a hole and frankly it is the "greatest" only if one picks "The greatest degree of hype" ever applied to one hole.  It most likelyonly ranks in double digits on its own course as "most interesting hole".

Huck, shudder no more.

I'd head offshore if I could make it, those two would probably not be my in my final 10 for a final round, although Pac Dunes would be closer to #11 and Pebble about #327, all things considered.    And I would not take either of my cats.

But, I'm puzzled by something.

Pebble Beach is being knocked because it's very expensive to play, and yet, everyone on here is saying that it's very crowded.   What does that tell you ? ?  ?

Expensive to play, yet golfers flock to it.

Perhaps its got something to do with the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.

Patrick

please, please, please ... ... ...

Please do not be puzzled, it is simple mathematics.  There are only so many people needed to keep pebble crowded.

It is nearly completely about who has the money to do it, but frankly I don't know if some on here can recognize that.  

There is so much hype about Pebble and at an absolute max ~ 55k rounds a year.  (Hint:  6 foursomes an hour * 7 hours daily* 7 days a week * 48 weeks a year = answer).  Consider that many business junkets eat up 3-4 rounds per player and you probably only need 20K people max. yearly to play, and probably less than that.

There's enough CEO's COO's, tourists and others to play"the ultimate" to keep it real busy.

Simple business proposition.  Then just raise the price incrementally to see what the traffic will bear.

How much money do you think Shinnecodk would be able to get if it were a "Shinnecock Tribal Resort" property with so many fewer rounds available?

[Gene Greco]

And, yes, I'll take Pebble for this scenario over Dornoch, any day of the week.

This statement should stop this discussion dead in its tracks.

[Mike_Sweeney]

And, yes, I'll take Pebble for this scenario over Dornoch, any day of the week.

This statement should stop this discussion dead in its tracks.

Dr Gene,

See below!!