Is this a serious design mistake ?

[mike_malone]

 I played a resort course in lower De. over the weekend. There had been a very windy day the day before we got there. There was considerable sand on the greens because there appeared to be no discernable lips on the bunkers. How serious of a mistake is this?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mayday,
I saw the same type of problem at Eagle Dunes in central Fl but in this case it was a couple feet below the green. It was also a very long and wide bunker that ran back about 70 yards down the fairway and the whole surface was rippled, almost like little mini dunes throughout. They had plastic snow fence at the end to keep the sand off the surface.
Several other fairway bunkers had sand blown out of them too.

At ED I think they could stop this effect by letting the edges of the bunkers get hairy and that style would also fit the course.

[wsmorrison]

Are you talking about a design mistake and/or a maintenance mistake?  Its hard to say without visualizing what you are talking about.  So you're going to have to take digital pictures, Mikey and learn how to post them.  How many of the greens had sand blown on them and how much sand was on the greens?

[Joe Hancock]

It might even be a sand selection mistake.....which would be funny considering how much attention we give to hazards these days to make sure they are fair and playable.

Joe

[John Gosselin]

It could be the type of sand they are using. If the sand has a lot of finer particle sizes  they will tend to come to the service and blow easily. Usually more of a problem off season when courses in that area aren't raking the bunkers as frequently.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday Malone,

Are you positive that they hadn't topdressed the greens prior to your arrival ?

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

That could be one explaination, however it would be highly unlikely as topdressing is more common when the turf is growing vigorously.

Joe

[wsmorrison]

Joe,

I've seen some greens in this area (suburban Phila) that have been top-dressed recently.

[Joe Hancock]

Wayne,

I know RGCC did earlier this winter in response to some issues they were having. Is it more common than I thought in your neck of the woods to topdress in late winter/ early spring?

We only do it here when the turf is growing, so that it will grow out of the sandy putting conditions quickly. The way RGCC's greens were topdressed would lead me to believe the putting wasn't going to be very good for some time following.

Thanks,

Joe

[TEPaul]

"There was considerable sand on the greens because there appeared to be no discernable lips on the bunkers. How serious of a mistake is this?"

Mayday:

Serious!!

And very likely a serious mistake even from some of golf architecture's greatest architects of the great "Golden Age".

Have you ever wondered why those incredibily beautiful ORIGINAL bunkers at CPC, and also the incredibly beautiful "Imitation dunes" at Pebble that were built at the same time didn't last?

Look at photos of those original bunkers---they are so low profile (really low lips) to greens particularly it almost looks as if the greens were pasted on.

One thing we know for sure is that Mother Nature certainly hasn't changed!    

[wsmorrison]

Joe,

I'm not sure about that; at RGGC it was probably because so much remediation needed to be done.  A light top-dressing was put on within the last few days (already hard to see).  It looks like the greens will be great this year!!  But I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[mike_malone]

 The sand was bright white. That might be a clue as to its type. The patterns of sand on the greens were evidence of the direction of the wind.

[Jason McNamara]

Mayday -

Just to get more of a handle on this, does "very windy" = 40 mph or 70 mph?  IOW, were the winds freakishly high (bringing down tree limbs, etc.)?

Jason

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   I think John Gosselin has it correct. Sounds like the fines have blown out of the bunkers. It's probable that in the process the sand blew up the face and burried the lips. If this area is prone to high winds of a certin direction it may have been better to keep the sand down low in the pits and grass the bunker face. Also, less bunkers on the sides of the greens facing the prevaling winds would help. Tough to say without being there. It has been very windy on the east coast lately.

Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday Malone,

If the sand was bright white it was probably introduced to the bunkers recently and in the application process some of it may have blown onto the greens.

If the bunkers were below the level of the green it's doubtful that the sand would blow out of them under normal conditions.

There have been a number of days when very high winds have buffeted golf courses in the last 30 or so days.

[mike_malone]

 We were putting out of the bunkers most of the day. There was no discernible lip. I don't know how windy it was but the starter mentioned to us that the day before was very windy.

[plabatt]

Isn't this why bunkers in the UK are revetted?  Subject to high winds the sand in retained in the bunker by the sod faced wall.  In addition, the bunker is more penal- no grip it and rip it.  We yanks are wimps when we are faced with escaping sideways or backwards out of sand trap.  Because indeed you are trapped.