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mike_malone

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Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2006, 10:37:16 PM »
DuPont was Tull. The portion that was Ross is now used by the company for research .
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AKA Mayday

T_MacWood

Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2006, 11:11:21 PM »
Actually I believe the old course at DuPont was designed by Wilfred Reid in 1920.
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Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2006, 01:06:55 AM »
Riviera was supposed to be 36.  The second 18 would have gone up the canyon to where the middle school is now (left of #1).  I guess Thomas had a design on paper (I think).  Too bad.


Jeff F.
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#nowhitebelt

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2006, 04:09:59 AM »
Pendleton Beach Golf Links.
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2006, 06:49:35 AM »
Quote from: Tom MacWood on March 14, 2006, 11:11:21 PM
Actually I believe the old course at DuPont was designed by Wilfred Reid in 1920.

DuPont's first course was designed by Wilfred Reid in the teens. It was 9 holes with sand greens and clay tees. Ross designed an 18 hole layout in 1923, which was built that same year and opened in 1924. The Ross course was totally new and did not include any of the Red holes. I believe they kept the Reid course open until the Ross course was complete than used it for expansion of the research facilities, which was the same eventual fate of the Ross course.
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Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2006, 07:00:54 AM »
In 2001 Lester George designed another course to replace the Nemours course at DuPont. On paper this course looks fantastic. We gave Lester a blank canvas of about 220 acres of rolling terrain with great natural features such as streams, ponds, rock ledges, and mature forest.

The project is on the shelve for now.
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Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Mike_Cirba

Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2006, 08:00:43 AM »
Quote from: John Gosselin on March 15, 2006, 06:49:35 AM
Quote from: Tom MacWood on March 14, 2006, 11:11:21 PM
Actually I believe the old course at DuPont was designed by Wilfred Reid in 1920.

DuPont's first course was designed by Wilfred Reid in the teens. It was 9 holes with sand greens and clay tees. Ross designed an 18 hole layout in 1923, which was built that same year and opened in 1924. The Ross course was totally new and did not include any of the Red holes. I believe they kept the Reid course open until the Ross course was complete than used it for expansion of the research facilities, which was the same eventual fate of the Ross course.

John,

What is the relationship of the present day "Porky Oliver GC" to the original courses at DuPont?  I've heard for years that it was the original DuPont CC, and had assumed this was the course the Wilfrid Reid built.

Can you shed any light based on your inside knowledge?

Thanks!
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2006, 08:04:58 AM »
Quote from: Tom MacWood on March 14, 2006, 10:00:51 PM
Willie Park II had two important projects that never materialized. Mablethorpe on the Lincolnshire coast was supposedly going to be one of the world's great links. Ocean City (NJ) was said to be the biggest scheme he undertook in America.

Tom,

The course at Ocean City NJ was built by Park.  It's now known as Greate Bay CC and Archie Struthers is one of the partners in that club.  

Much of what Park originally designed is still on the ground there, despite some changes by George Fazio and more recently, Ron Garl, over the years.
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Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2006, 08:18:23 AM »
Crenshaw/Coore designed a course just outside of Louisville.  The routing is finished  I believe, just on hold for now or ever
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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2006, 08:28:44 AM »
 Mike,

   Growing up in De. the talk was that Porky Oliver was the original Wilm. CC.

    Is it true that the current DuPont course was Tull?
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John Gosselin

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Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2006, 11:37:20 AM »
Quote from: Mike Cirba on March 15, 2006, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: John Gosselin on March 15, 2006, 06:49:35 AM
Quote from: Tom MacWood on March 14, 2006, 11:11:21 PM
Actually I believe the old course at DuPont was designed by Wilfred Reid in 1920.



John,

What is the relationship of the present day "Porky Oliver GC" to the original courses at DuPont?  I've heard for years that it was the original DuPont CC, and had assumed this was the course the Wilfrid Reid built.

Can you shed any light based on your inside knowledge?

Thanks!


Mayday is right. Porkys was the original Wilmington CC. They abandon Porkys for their current location in the early sixties. North course Dick Wilson and South Course RTJ.


The current DuPont Course was originally Tull post World War Two. Plain and very toned down, if you will, as compared to the original Nemours course that was opened in 38, which he did also. The DuPont course now is basically most of Tull's routing with a Lester George designed golf course on it.
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Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

T_MacWood

Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2006, 01:16:24 PM »
That's an interesting evolution for DuPont - for some reason Ross did not list that course on his list of designs (around 1930). Any thoughts why he would not list it? Is it possible he incorporated some of Reid's nine-hole course?

My mistake - I forgot about the name change for Ocean City. That is another course with an interesting history. the project was anounced in 1915, but whatever reason the course was not completed unitl 1923.

In southern California Caves Landing at Pisbo Beach (near San Luis O) was designed by JD Dunn and George Thomas, and I believe MacKenzie consulting. Dunn compared it to Muirfield.

Another one is Dana Point, which was supposedly a spectacular site. One article had MacKenzie and Hunter doing it, another Max Behr and Billy Behr (which would have been an interesting collaboration). With Berh and MacKenzie being friends I'm surprised they never worked together.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 01:32:20 PM by Tom MacWood »
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2006, 01:18:03 PM »
For Raynor-never-builts there are 3 - and in no particlar order:

2nd course Gibson Island:

Patrick, right on ......   2nd course for Gibson Island - great set of holes and they were so bold I would think CBM had a lot if input


2nd course Fishers Island:

Raynor himself said it wold be "better" than the first course


Olympic Club:

the original plan 1918
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2006, 01:22:52 PM »
oh, and there was another:

the original proposal Raynor submitted to CC of Fairfield

Oliver Gould Jennings, the founder, thought the holes presented were way too difficult for his membership and asked Raynor to water it down a bit (there was a completed Cape hole out on an island in the lagoon)

just a side note on this course:

There was only enough room for 9 holes on the property. Jennings visits the Lido project and saw the landfill operation. He then proceeds to do the same for the next ga-zillion years. Even the lagoon at CCF resemble the shape of the lagoon at Lido.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Kye Goalby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2006, 02:29:45 PM »
George,

Along the Raynor line, the Charles Banks additional 27 at Annapolis Roads could have been pretty spectacular.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2006, 02:35:11 PM »
hey Goalby Jr-guy!!  you're right, the rest of the Annapolis Road venue was pretty darn good

they're trying their best to protect againt the loss of the 9 holes they do have. i've been doing my best to help

whrre are you, man?
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2006, 02:41:20 PM »
Donald Ross laid out 36 holes for Sedgefield CC in Greensboro, but only the first 18 were built.  The Club has a cool painting of the routing of all 36 holes.
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JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2006, 09:39:05 PM »
 Yeamans Hall had another 18 proposed but was never built.
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wsmorrison

Re:Greatest courses never built
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2006, 09:41:42 PM »
Jim,

Do the plans exist for the second 18 at Yeaman's Hall?  Was it to be a Raynor?
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