Does this describe strategic design...

[John Kavanaugh]

From the mouth of our own Mayday Malone..."But, I prefer strategic; I think it is more fun to have a shot after a mistake."  

[John Kavanaugh]

Why would golf be the one aspect of our life that is not punished for poor strategic choices...isn't the price of failure an important part of most strategic options we weigh day in and day out..

[JESII]

No.

I think strategic could probably be defined as....

an opportunity to gain an advantage on the next shot through correct placement of the present shot.

Agree? Disagree?

[Ted Kramer]

No.

I think strategic could probably be defined as....

an opportunity to gain an advantage on the next shot through correct placement of the present shot.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree!

I think that the term strategic is often used on this site to mean something along the lines of "offering recovery", while penal is used to mean "once you hit it off line it's lost or your choices are severely limitted".

I agree with the above definition of penal more than I do that of strategic. Your definition of strategic is right on the money.

-Ted

[John Kavanaugh]

J,

Without the threat of penalty can you imagine a scenario where flogging isn't the best strategy...Would a greater use of options occur at the 10th at Riveria if the front bunker was replaced with a water hazard..During the first three days of the LA Open at least..

[John Kavanaugh]

No.

I think strategic could probably be defined as....

an opportunity to gain an advantage on the next shot through correct placement of the present shot.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree!

I think that the term strategic is often used on this site to mean something along the lines of "offering recovery", while penal is used to mean "once you hit it off line it's lost or your choices are severely limitted".

I agree with the above definition of penal more than I do that of strategic. Your definition of strategic is right on the money.

-Ted

I call that penal vs easy..

[mike_malone]

 John,

   I wasn't defining "strategic" in that post ;just giving one aspect of it that I find enjoyable.


    We have a hole at my home course -#13- where a missed tee shot to the right elicits the comment "You're in jail ; but it's minimum security." You end up with trees in your way but you can hit a variety of shots not just one--the punchout.


     I find it enjoyable to be able to hit a shot after a miss rather than punchout of trees or drop a ball ,take a penalty stroke , and then hit a shot.

 There is punishment for mistakes on strategic courses ; it is a more challenging shot than the properly hit shot.

      John,

      I think golf is one area where you should have a chance to correct your mistakes by hitting a shot not by adding a stroke to your scorecard as a reminder of your ineptitude.


      My experience is that courses that exact too many penalty shots and too many punchouts are penal in nature but trying to putt 60 feet with significant undulation  because you hit the wrong part of the green or pitching over a deep bunker where the green slopes severely away from you tends to be strategic.
   

[archie_struthers]

John.

I'm with Mayday!

Sometimes the best stategy is so subtle that only the discerning eye can see it.

Or as Herbert Warren Wind said so eloquently after playing PIne Valley for the first time.

"the right of eternal punishment should be reserved for God alone"

[JESII]

Are there only two books, The Strategic and The Penal?

If that's the case, I would try to add another book or two.


JK,

In my definition of strategic design, the threat of penalty is the resultant challenge of the next shot. In the context of your question, what constitutes a miss?

[mike_malone]

 JES II

    Wouldn't you want to add the level of punishment to your equation?

  I feel like your definition so far can be for all forms of design--strategic, penal, or heroic.


  The distinction comes in the level of punishment IMO.

[ForkaB]

I'd call it "fun" and (maybe) "good" but not "strategic."

[Ted Kramer]

No.

I think strategic could probably be defined as....

an opportunity to gain an advantage on the next shot through correct placement of the present shot.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree!

I think that the term strategic is often used on this site to mean something along the lines of "offering recovery", while penal is used to mean "once you hit it off line it's lost or your choices are severely limitted".

I agree with the above definition of penal more than I do that of strategic. Your definition of strategic is right on the money.

-Ted

I call that penal vs easy..

I agree.
I think that we are generally too tough on our definition/description of penal and too lenient on our definition/description of strategic on this site.

My round at Shinnecock had TONS of strategic nuances, none of it struck me as easy.

-Ted

[wsmorrison]

"We have a hole at my home course -#13- where a missed tee shot to the right elicits the comment "You're in jail ; but it's minimum security." You end up with trees in your way but you can hit a variety of shots not just one--the punchout."

Like most predicaments on golf courses, there are varying levels of recovery depending upon which tees you play from, club selection, wind and how far you hit the ball with carry and roll a factor depending upon conditions.  As for #13 at Rolling Green, the trees on the right can very easily dictate a punch out back to the fairway or a riskier punchout to a lower landing area beyond a creek and well below the perched green surface.  

Because of variables such as turf condition, distance, tee selection, wind, club selection, etc. what might be a option filled recovery for some is a singular recovery shot for others.

I don't think strategic designs require recovery shots for one and all and certainly not all over the golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

From the mouth of our own Mayday Malone..."But, I prefer strategic; I think it is more fun to have a shot after a mistake."  

I think a more apropos statement would be:

I think it is more fun to think I have a shot after a mistake.

 

[wsmorrison]

Archie,

You're going to get yourself into a whole heap of trouble if you find yourself agreeing with that knucklehead Mike Malone all the time  

While I've never been to Twisted Dune, the controversy on here indicates there's something worth seeing.  I hope to do that someday this spring.

Please say hello to that wonderful and talented gentleman, Tim DeBaufre for me.  I have been remiss in not speaking to him in a long time.  In fact, I'll just pick up the phone and call him right now!

[John Kavanaugh]

I think the rabid distaste for losing a ball or two is a modern phenomenon...The two piece surlyn covered ball just has the potential to last too long..In the old days a sleeve a day wasn't all that uncommon..lost ball or not..

[mike_malone]

 I played a resort course over the weekend. It had a hole with an island fairway that required a straight forced carry. If you hit it reasonably long and straight you ended up with a twenty to thirty yard advantage over the bailout fairway to the right. This required a diagonal water carry and had a bunker on the right in the landing area. There was also a bunker on the right of the green that made the shot from the island less challenged.


     I would call this a strategic hole. If there were only the island route I would call it penal.

[John_Cullum]

Strategery to me means having a superior way to approach playing the hole that might not be readily observable. Penalties are not necessarily a part of that equation.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
   I could have used "some shots" on #13 and saved you your time. But , my point was about a specific situation where one encounters choices in recovery.

   I certainly don't think all mishits should have a shot, but the more recovery possible the more likely the course is strategic; the less recovery the more likely it is penal.

[Ted Kramer]

Wayne,
 
...

   I certainly don't think all mishits should have a shot, but the more recovery possible the more likely the course is strategic; the less recovery the more likely it is penal.

If "easy" were substituted for "strategic" in that sentence would it still remain true/accurate in your opinion?

-Ted

[JESII]

Just out of curiousity, does anyone think architects build courses with the goal of being classified within one of the categories mentioned here, or some other category?

[MarkT]

Can a hole be "strategic"?

A hole can offer options, but the strategy lies with the player. An architect can be strategic in his design, but can the design be strategic? His strategy can be to fool the player or penalize the player for a wrong decision, but ultimately, it's the player that has to decide the strategy.

[mike_malone]

 Ted,
      "Easy" would not require a  challenging recovery shot "strategic" does.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,
      "Easy" would not require a  challenging recovery shot "strategic" does.

I didn't see "challenging" anywhere in your post.
 

-Ted

[mike_malone]

 Ted,

    It is interesting how this thread was started as if I had created a definition of "strategic". When ,in fact, I had not done so. I was just observing that one could more likely aim at the edges of fairways on TD than PH. If the penalty for missing the fairway by a little is severe, I can't imagine people choosing that option often unless they were in a very small group of expert players. If there are more choices I can use more strategy.

    For me "challenge" is the essence of a recovery shot. I don't see recovery shots as easy.

      It means that one has there skills tested. When I need to shape a shot or hit a half shot or control the height it is challenging in a mental and physical way. If I am required to hit a straight shot to a particular point I see the physical challenge but no mental desion is necessary.