Fwy playing surface- what's important?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Assuming your building a course in the south with Bermuda fwys.

The hybrids, 328, 419, tifsport…all form a fine textured, high density turf that can be mowed very tight. But, they are prolific thatch producers and require a lot of inputs to be properly managed…that is, play fast.

The seeded varieties are not as fine, although some are considered fine textured, produce much less thatch and require less fert and water.

Seeded type is less then half initial cost and much easier to grow in, and repair when needed.

Usually seeded types are only used when money is an issue. When a course will be regularly overseeded the hybrids are almost used as they transition better than the seeded types.

In my case money is not an issue and we will not be overseeding. I believe I can have a more consistently firm and fast course over the long haul with a seeded type vs the “better” hybrids.

So do you go with the "conventional" thinking and use a hybrid that produces a very fine playing surface but may play a bit softer, or use a seeded type that will be a tad bit courser, but can be maintained as a firmer surface? Any thoughts?

[Peter Galea]

It's been many years since I've done anything with bermuda, so..coming from an outsider's view, I vote for firmer. I don't like playing on a sponge. Where money's not an issue are there other things you can do to produce a finer playing surface? Will Primo or other pgr's thin up the blade?

[Eric Johnson]

Don,

Are you off to a new project or is this a hypothetical?  I assume you are not planning on bermuda in Central Oregon..

Eric

[Gary_Mahanay]

Don,

Haven't seen any Riviera, Princess 77, Yukon or any of the other newer seeded varieties.  But for divot recovery and handling heavy cart traffic, I would put 419 #1 and Tifsport #2 .  Tifsport is not the thatch producer that 419 is, and the ball may sit up a little better on tifsport too.  Went to the 2001 US Open at Southern Hills and they had what looked like common bermuda cut very short that the ball sat up real well on.  I think they may have changed out their fairway grass by now.

Gary

[Joe Hancock]

Don,

Does the number of rounds a course is anticipating have any affect on the grass selection? Traffic can be one defense against thatch accumulation.

I would consider weed invasion as another choice factor. Some of the seeded bermuda's are a more open canopy and can be a bit more work to keep out the annual grasses and broadleafs.

Joe

[Bill_McBride]

Don, we will be planting new grass at Pensacola CC in about a month.  Common bermuda fairways, Tifdwarf greens, no overseeding except maybe tees with poa trivialis.  We may dye the Tifdwarf greens if there's too much bitching about the brown.

The ball sits up great on the bermuda fairway, the same grass at 2" is a mother in the rough, it's very firm in the winter when cut close (easier to putt from off the green than try to nip pitches), and very few thatch problems.

Have you become a Southerner?  I was looking forward to a visit in Bend next summer....

[Don_Mahaffey]

Yes, I’m at a new project in the south but I’d like to hold off on discussing the project particulars, other then grass selection, at this time.

Play will be very light and divot recovery and cart traffic are non-issues.
There will be a lot (70+ acres) of fwy acreage.
Money is not really an issue with construction, but is a maintenance consideration.
Course will be sand capped and fast through the green is the goal.

Given what I’ve listed above, I believe a strong argument could be made for going with one of the newer seeded Bermuda varieties. I’m trying to find a course in the south that has used a seeded Bermuda, through the green, in the last year or so. Any help or comments are welcome.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Don,

    Here in north central Texas I haven't heard of any new or renovated courses using any of the seeded varieties.  The high dollar places like Dallas National, Vequero, and TPC Craig Ranch all used zoysia with sand capped fairways.  The other popular choice is Tifsport... even out in west Texas where you know that the well water can have a high sodium content.  
    419 was such a big improvement from the old common bermudagrass and then now I think that tifsport may be better than 419.  The tifsport that we have here in Prosper went dormant sometime around the first of December and is now not quite broken but greening up fast.
    It will be interesting to hear what you find and decide about the seeded varieties.  There are so many variables to take into consideration.  Please keep us informed of your progress.

Gary

[Chris Neff]

Hey Don!
I agree with a lot of your reasons to go with seeded bermuda compared to 419 and the others. Consider the winter kill factor depending on were you are and how cold it does get. Regular 419 planted on capped sand fairways with no overseeding is one of the best playing surfaces in the south. If you watch your fertilizing practices,aerify and verticut regular the thatch will be minimal. Topdressing which is becoming more and more popular will will also assist in keeping it fast and firm. I was Asst. Supt. at TPC at Sawgrass for five years and I completly understand what your talking about thatch and how difficult it is to make it fast and firm. I was out at TPC about a week ago and I got on the five fairways that have been completly renovated already and they are perfect. They removed the old bermuda and shelled out 6". Capped with sand and sodded with 419. They talked about tifsport but decided on 419. They are so fast and firm it's unbelievable. Also think about how the seeded bermuda's respond to herbicide treatments, disease, shade among many things. That's the only problem with seeded bermuda's in the south it just hasn't been completly tested yet. Good Luck it sounds like a neat project!

Chris Neff

[ed_getka]

Don,
   I don't know the first thing about the grass issues, but I alway prefer firmer if I was choosing. How will the wind effect the playability of the course if you go firmer? Good luck with the choices and we would LOVE to hear more details of the project, and I'm sure you will when able.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Don,

I think I said yesterday that our tifsport at Gentle Creek in Prosper, Texas had not broken dormacy but was greening up every day... well I was mistaken because looking at it today, March 9 , our fairways and surounds are 75% green.  If some of those seeded varieties go dormant late and green up as early as tifsport then I sure want to see it.

Gary

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ed,
It's a very windy area so that alone should give the course some pace, combined with a firm playing surface should make for a very fun challenge. I'll post more when the time is right.

Gary,
Thanks for your insights.
We're a lot farther south so dormancy is less of an issue, that and the fact that color is not really a client requirement has us focused totally on playability. We're considering seeded varieties because we're considering everything in an effort to meet expectations, over the long run.
Thanks again.

[Craig Van Egmond]

At least we now know what this thread was about!   What a great opportunity for Don and Mike both.

[S. Huffstutler]

Don:
 I would choose 419 over TifSport and either of those over a seeded variety. Talk to Mike Brown at Champion Turf in Texas, he has some excellent 419 and he also has a newer variety of fairway grass (can't remember the name) that is bred to mow at sub .5" hoc. Very nice stuff, looks kinda like TifDwarf, but with a great root system.  Definitely look at the 419 before you buy it, there's a lot of wierd stuff out there that is being sold as 419.

Regards,

Steve

[Gary_Mahanay]

Craig,

I'm lost.  What did I miss?  What do you mean "we now know what this thread was about."  What is the great opportunity for Don and Mike?  Who is Mike?

Gary

[George Pazin]

Gary, check out the most recent Feature Interview.

Feature Interview

[Craig Van Egmond]

Sorry bout that Gary... see the latest interview with Mike Nuzzo

[Gary_Mahanay]

Thanks guys.  I guess I wasn't paying attention.  Sounds like this is going to be something great for south Texas.  Now, I hope Don comes back and tells us what he finds about seeding bermudagrass on this site.  I see now why divot recovery and cart traffic won't be a problem.  Not knowing exactly where this is even with the great sand and wind that is on site, I would think with over 50" or more rainfall for most of south Texas around the Houston area, firm and fast would be challenging at best.

P.S.  Oh...that Mike

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