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Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Twisted Dune - A discussion
« on: March 11, 2006, 01:57:45 PM »
I played Twisted Dune today for the first time.
It was a complete snore.
I wouldn't even know where to begin discussing the negatives.

Due to the pending arrival of a new baby in June and some financial considerations, I didn't pay my dues at Pine Hill this year. So please don't start telling me that I'm biased because I'm a member . . .

There isn't a shot in hell that Twisted Dune is half the course Pine Hill is. There is only one thing about Twisted Dune that is superior in the comparison. Twisted is an easier walk. If that is the end all be all, then fine, choose Twisted.

I walk Pine Hill when I play it and it isn't easy . . .
but I'd walk Pine Hill 10 out of 10 times if my option was Twisted Dune, no question about it.

I don't have the time right now, but I'll post more about Twisted and its architectural shortcomings later on this weekend.

-Ted
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 12:34:12 PM by Ted Kramer »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2006, 02:26:01 PM »
Wow, the website says the bunkers are "carnivorous". Not just "cavernous", but "carnivorous". Apparently the sand traps actually eat meat.

That sounds like a pretty intense golf course.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2006, 04:13:45 PM »
Ted,
   I seem to remember Twisted Dunes opinions being a mixed bag, but nothing as negative as that. Curious to hear what was so bad about it.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt_Ward

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2006, 04:27:06 PM »
Ted:

It's easy to throw forward generalized comments -- I echo what Ed said -- the devil is in the details. Please elaborate when time permits.

P.S.-- Yes, being a member (even a former one) is part of the discussion whether you like it or now. ;)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2006, 05:01:12 PM »
Matt,
   I was hoping you would chime in. You know the course, and I've never seen it yet. Is my memory correct that people were generally in the like it or not like it camps? Or is it more of a spectrum?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2006, 05:37:06 PM »
I've played TD twice in the high season several years ago, and actually liked the course.  It's not world-class by any means, but I don't know if it's as bad as you say.

Hidden Creek it is not, for sure, but is it really that bad?

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2006, 07:04:19 PM »
Dan,
   What would you say are the attributes of TD? Weaknesses? Doak rating? Favorite hole and why? Thanks.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2006, 07:10:00 PM »
Ted,

These two courses may be the perfect examples of Golf Digest (Pine Hill) vs Golfweek (Twisted Dune) view of golf courses. Pine Hill being the visually stunning course with some awesome tee shots that is barely walkable with long rides up to Mike Cirba tees shots down to fairways. Twisted Dune being basically flat moved dirt at the edges to create movement and framing in the fairways. It is a better walking course for sure.

The one thing that I don't like about Pine Hill is something that Tom Paul clued me into is the built up fairways on top of the original land. When you miss the fairways, they propel the ball deep into the woods and make finding and recovery impossible. In the 10 rounds of life test, I would take Twisted Dune 8 and Pine Hill 2.

I have only played each once, so I could be wrong!

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2006, 08:02:12 PM »
For me, I liked Pine Hill more than Twisted Dunes, although when I played TD it was very early after it opened.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

DTaylor18

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2006, 10:14:40 PM »
I was honestly disappointed in both.  Mike Sweeney and I played Pine Hill and decided to walk, which was one of the toughest walks I have ever had.  Even Mike agreed with me, which is a rarity.  We both were disappointed in some of the repetitiveness, as it kept going down and up over and over again.  There were certainly some scenic spots, but with the really long walks from greens to the next tees, many of which were roller coaster rides, the whole experience did not meet my expectations.  There were few holes there that I found memorable.

I would rather play Twisted Dunes over Pine Hill, but I have not rushed back to play Twisted Dunes either.  Pace of play there was horrible.  We played the front nine in 3 hours and 15 minutes, as we waited on every single shot.  There was a four group backup on what I think was the third hole, a par 3.  There were definitely some fun holes and I enjoyed the links aspect of it, but it just fell short of much of the hype that I had heard.  Perhaps my expectations were just too high for both.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2006, 02:35:33 AM »
Is Twisted Dunes Archie Struther's course?

If so, I suspect he would willingly discuss with you the challenges the land presented.  

There are so many Dunes I cannot keep track of them all.

Twisted Dunes
The Dunes Club RTJ
Pacific Dunes
Prairie Dunes
Mystic Dunes
Palmetto Dunes
Bandon Dunes
Dunes Club Nugent 9
Lost Dunes
Barnbougle Dunes
Wild Dunes

DUNES vs HILLS

Sand Hills
Shinnecock Hills
Southern Hills
Spyglass Hill
shrimp creole
popcorn shrimp
pineapple shrimp


What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2006, 04:45:37 AM »
audible yucks, forrest ::)
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2006, 08:29:32 AM »
For me to compare Pine Hill to Twisted might not be exactly fair. I've played 40+ rounds at PH vs only 1 at Twisted. With that being said here are a few opinions:

Twisted:
Incredibly monotonous design. Hole after hole with goofy "dunes" lining flat fairways.

There isn't one hole on the course that I would consider to be better than "ok". There was one shot in the entire round that I thought was interesting . . .it was the uphill approach to the first par5.

Enough dirt was moved to make what seemed like 5000 15 foot "dunes". Why couldn't some of that dirt have been used to create some roll and movement ACTUALLY IN the fairway? I have played holes and courses full of any number of "framing bunkers" that were infinitely less offensive and meaningless than the "dunes" on the edges of these fairways.

I'm honestly surprised that Twisted Dune isn't the GCA.com poster child for all that is wrong with many modern designs. Twisted is the most boring, least architecturally interesting course that I have played in ages. It might be second only to Belle Terre in SC on my list of DO NOT PLAY.

If you guys arte looking for my opinons on Pine Hill, I have no problem offering them. Feel free to ask away. But I'll make this very clear, I can not imagine considering Twisted even in the same league as Pine Hill.

I suppose this is just a perfect example of "different strokes . . ."


-Ted

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2006, 09:22:34 AM »
Ted,
Many of the dunes themselves were very well done.  But one of my issues with the course was along the lines of what you said in that the fairways and greensites were not very well integrated into the dunes.  The dunes should have been extensions of the fairways and greens.  There is a disconnect.  However, I surely did not think the course was as big a disappointment as you say it is.  It is unique and will catch people's attention.  
 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 11:55:49 AM by Mark_Fine »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2006, 09:22:50 AM »

Twisted:
Incredibly monotonous design. Hole after hole with goofy "dunes" lining flat fairways.


Ted,

Just curious, have you ever played Sand Barrens? I would be interested on your thoughts versus TD.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2006, 09:40:28 AM »
Ted & Mike,

I think this is where a good deal of architectural or golf course discussions fail.

The comparison of two courses, played on different days, under different conditions, by different people, is subjective at best and biased at worst.

The question shouldn't be which one is better, it should be....
Is each course enjoyable to play ?
If so, why, If not, why.

Is CPC better than PV ?
Is Seminole better than Pebble Beach ?
Is Sand Hills better than Friar's Head ?

And, can you really draw a conclusion based on one round ?
Or should we be reminded of what CBM said on page 295, in "Scotland's Gift"

There is no one answer, unless you want to create a list for publication. ;D

Courses appeal to our visual and playing preferences and each individual has their unique preferences.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2006, 09:49:58 AM »
Ted

For your information, Belle Terre in Myrtle Beach is being bulldozed for housing. I agree with that decision. As for your opinion re Twisted Dune, we have a difference of opinion probably nothing more than "different strokes for different folks." It is "unique" in the area, I like the "look" and the course is in good condition in prime season. It is a different type of course than Pine Hill which I like on a different level but think it's a difficult course to play(for a mid-handicapper) on a day to day basis. Twisted Dune is not.

Have you played Emerald Links, Shore Gate, Sand Barrens, Sea Oak, Stone Harbor, BHP East and other publics at the NJ shore?

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ian Andrew

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2006, 09:54:35 AM »
Pat,

If we all followed your advice, we would not talk about courses.

First off, you have to make judgement calls on a single playing, because that's all most of us can arrange. We do the best we can with what we take in. Books work the same way, we don't take everything in there either.

Second, we compare everything we play to something, and that is how we form an opinion on its merits. You may be right in this case, the two are poor comparrison partners, but I don't agree with simply dismissing the idea.

I think CPC and Pine valley can be compared, but that's me.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 09:11:54 PM by Ian Andrew »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2006, 10:00:42 AM »

Ian Andrew,

Would you point out to me the "substance" in the critique that appears below ?

For whatever the reason, it seems that many overlook site specifics.



I played Twisted Dune today for the first time.
It was a complete snore.
I wouldn't even know where to begin discussing the negatives.

There isn't a shot in hell that Twisted Dune is half the course Pine Hill is. There is only one thing about Twisted Dune that is superior in the comparison. Twisted is an easier walk. If that is the end all be all, then fine, choose Twisted.

I walk Pine Hill when I play it and it isn't easy . . .
but I'd walk Pine Hill 10 out of 10 times if my option was Twisted Dune, no question about it.


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2006, 10:35:10 AM »
Let me take a shot at criticizing TD.  (it's been 4 years, so my memory is a little foggy, which may actually explain a bit about TD)

Often times, the "dunes" frame the fairways to keep opposing holes segregated.  They do nothing strategic from a golf point of view other than tending to keep a golfer's ball in the proper area.   (due to the famous Jersey daily-fee 5.5 hour round standard, may not be a bad thing  ;)  )  The green complexes are nothing special either.  

The course is constructed out of an old sand mine.   This is how the dunes came about.  

Perhaps the better comparison is between Twisted Dunes and Tobacco Road.  I think they they're constructed on similar soil - sandy - with similar grasses.  Tobacco Road is clearly a superior design due to its excitement, drama, and clear emphasis of providing a great game of golf.

I think Sand Barrens is also a much better execution, but I think they had the advantage of better land.  To me, Hidden Creek is obviously the cream of the new sandy of South Jersey.  And it's obviously, and thankfully, quite a bit different.

On the Doak scale, I think TD would score a 3 - 4.  

I also think Empire Golf, the owner, tends to oversell its courses.  Just look at their writeup on Pine Barrens GC to see the hype.  Granted, I liked Pine Barrens, but it was not "one of my top 10 golf memories".  

This review from golfcourse,com may best describe TD: "this is the best course in nj.   Bring your cooler"

I was not saying that TD was a favorite - I just don't think it's as horrible a course as was stated earlier.  I've played much, much worse.  Come on out to Chester County, PA - We have such 'winners' as Kimberton GC, Tattersall, Chisel Creek, Loch Narin, and perhaps the worst course I've ever played - Pickering (designed by the original dairy farmer who asses a 2 shot penalty for trying to cross a dogleg).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 10:52:36 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2006, 11:53:27 AM »
Ted & Mike,

I think this is where a good deal of architectural or golf course discussions fail.

The comparison of two courses, played on different days, under different conditions, by different people, is subjective at best and biased at worst.

The question shouldn't be which one is better, it should be....
Is each course enjoyable to play ?
If so, why, If not, why.

Is CPC better than PV ?
Is Seminole better than Pebble Beach ?
Is Sand Hills better than Friar's Head ?

And, can you really draw a conclusion based on one round ?
Or should we be reminded of what CBM said on page 295, in "Scotland's Gift"

There is no one answer, unless you want to create a list for publication. ;D

Courses appeal to our visual and playing preferences and each individual has their unique preferences.

Patrick,

I agree with you regarding the "comparison of different courses". I don't usually go that route with my posts. I only made the comparison because there were many people on this board who positioned TD as a better course / better option in the area than Pine Hill in previous threads.

Did I enjoy my round?
Yes, I did. Did it have ANYTHING to do with the course itself? It most definitely did not.

I can't think of more than 2 possible reasons to ever go back.
1. A few of my friends ask me to join them for a round there.
2. A few GCA.com guys want to go play a round there and educate me with regards to the architectural merits of the course.

I can agree that one round does not reveal everything a course has to offer. But one round at Twisted was plenty for me. I don't need or want to look that hard to find positives with regards to GCA on any particualar course when there are so many other options.

-Ted
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 11:55:37 AM by Ted Kramer »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2006, 11:56:26 AM »
Ted

For your information, Belle Terre in Myrtle Beach is being bulldozed for housing. I agree with that decision. As for your opinion re Twisted Dune, we have a difference of opinion probably nothing more than "different strokes for different folks." It is "unique" in the area, I like the "look" and the course is in good condition in prime season. It is a different type of course than Pine Hill which I like on a different level but think it's a difficult course to play(for a mid-handicapper) on a day to day basis. Twisted Dune is not.

Have you played Emerald Links, Shore Gate, Sand Barrens, Sea Oak, Stone Harbor, BHP East and other publics at the NJ shore?

Steve

Steve,

I haven't played any of the courses that you listed.
But I'd love to get together for a round at any of them if possible.

-Ted
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 12:04:05 PM by Ted Kramer »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2006, 11:57:57 AM »

Twisted:
Incredibly monotonous design. Hole after hole with goofy "dunes" lining flat fairways.


Ted,

Just curious, have you ever played Sand Barrens? I would be interested on your thoughts versus TD.

I haven't played it.
Maybe we can get together for a round there this year . . .
any possibility?

-Ted

redanman

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2006, 12:02:18 PM »
ACCC
One take:

ACCC

BHP East
Sand Barrens (some on here don't seem to like this pretty decent course)
Twisted Dune = Emerald Links = Pine Hill (more or less)
Stone Harbor


Shore Gate :(   (Poster boy for framing and extraneous crap-ola)
 
need to play
Sea Oaks

« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 12:04:23 PM by redanman® aka BillV »

Matt_Ward

Re:Twisted Dune - Major Disapointment
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2006, 01:44:09 PM »
Dan Hermann:

If you give TD a max of 3-4 on the Doak scale -- can you please provide for me and others your Doak number for other Jersey-based public courses you have played?

I'd like to get a real good read on how you assign specific course rating numbers according to Doak's formula.

If Jersey public courses are not available -- then chose those nearest to where you reside. Thanks ...

Gents:

On Pine Hill -- you have a marvelous site with plenty of greensites that are simply a paint-by-the-numbers design. The only ones that bear any resemblance to real detail are the long 9th and 10th -- the two best holes on the course by far.

Twisted Dune was clearly concocted but the overall routing and pacing of the holes is indeed well done. I am not a fan of the finale there -- simply a yardage eater in order to end the round.

I have to urge folks opining here if they believe Twisted Dunes is out of character than they need to make a side detour and head to Shore Gate -- it is quite likely the most Frankenstein-oriented creation I have ever played.