[Gib_Papazian]

Uncle George,

We worked ourselves senseless writing and rewriting descriptions of classic holes for your book . . . . jeez, tell him to cough up the jing and buy a copy, but make sure he gives the great Bahto appropriate credit. . . . . .  

[George_Bahto]

well looka here - the Gibber -

we made a good team, huh?      (are you ready for more?}

[Michael Dugger]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.

I also seek similar information regarding the following.....

Redan
Road
Postage Stamp
Biarritz
Eden
Sahara
Punchbowl
Bottle
Short

However, let's do them one at a time.

Additionally, what other "types of golf holes" can be categorized?  Of course, examples are appreciated.

Again, what other types, or kinds of holes are out there?  Volcano?  I thought I head someone talk about that. Island green, but that isn't as dramatic as biarritz now is it?

Doak speaks of the green at #8 PD being inspired from the 3rd? at Woking.  Is there something to this type of defense of par?  The particular arrangement of bunkers, green pitch, #of tiers, size and speed of green, etc...?

I'm out of ideas

Boomarang greens withstanding.  Bunkers inside of greens withstanding.  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Excuse my ignorance but are the Himalayas just a higher version of the Alps hole?  Or are they just a few isolated bunkers on Dunes that effectively could never be replicated because they depended entirely on the terrain that existed?  Does it depend on the distance between the hazard and the green?

Information please.

[ForkaB]

Sean

"Himalayas" at Prestwick are called such because the sand dunes are higher than at their "Alps."


MDugger

It would be good to take the Gibster's advice and buy his and Uncle George's book, particularly if you are going to follow up with 5-10 similar threads.  Read the book and then make more focused posts.  Otherwise all we do is rehash old ground and use up Ran's bandwidth.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I wouldn't call this thread a waste of bandwidth...its a very good thread, quite infomative.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I never said "waste" and I agree that there is some good stuff on the thread, but I do think that if anybody is going to try to write an article about something, he or she ought to do some basic research beforehand and tell us about it his/her preliminary thoughts/conclusions before trying to pick other people's brains.  To me, that's common courtesy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I'd agree, "The Evangelist of Golf" contains a great deal of information on the template holes, NGLA and CBM's other courses.  It's a good read.

[George_Bahto]

buy lots of copies and give them out as gifts    

seriously, thanks to all who have purchased it and refer to it. It makes the years of research worthwhile.

[Tom Huckaby]

Of course my autographed copy of Evangelist is a very proud possession - and it is a wonderful book, one which yes, MDugger ought to read carefully and use with proper attribution.

I would just also point him to the book to which I keep referring, Classic Golf Hole Design - Using the Greatest Holes as Inspiration for Modern Courses by Cornish and Graves.  They've already done what MDugger is purporting to try to do for his article.  All types of holes are covered, with whys and what fors as to if they are classics, how many examples exist, what have you.

Because unlike some of my friends here, well I've been pretty nice so far and keep feeding you quotes - but even I have a limit.
 

TH

[E. Jean-Marc Monrad]

Would #4 at TCC count as an alps hole?  The normal play is to hit a  long iron off the tee leaving a blind shot to a green below.  The green below is surrounded by bunkers so unless someone threads the small mouth there is no rolling it up.

However, there is the option to hit driver leaving only a visible downhill pitch.

[TEPaul]

E Jean-Marc:

Do you mean TCC's 3rd hole? If so, I would say no. In my opinion, that hole is simply one that made use of some truly unique natural topography in the hole's mid-body. I think the thing about that hole that strikes most when they see it for the first time would be something like;

"Wow they really had some guts to use that topography that way on this hole."

I think that hole is entirely unique, and not something that these " hole names" could be fitted to.

[E. Jean-Marc Monrad]

No the third hole is a great hole...I am talking about the 4th hole. One tees off hitting it up to a slighly rising fairway with a 3 Iron leaving a blind shot over the top of the hill into a green at the botom of the hill.  Great hole also. Just wondering if this constituted an alps hole.

[TEPaul]

Jean-Marc:

I doubt I'd say that about the 4th hole (that it's an Alps). It's just sort of lowish left to right ridge-line that blinds the green on the right to left swing of the hole if you don't get aggressive enough off the tee. That green is actually a Rees Jones form of restoration of a green Flynn apparently moved from perhaps 40-50 yards to the right of where it is now.

Do I have that right, Wayne?

[Paul_Turner]

Courtesy of Ran...the mighty Alps at Yeamans Hall.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Geoffrey Cornish redesigned the Flynn green sometime in the 1950s.  He enlarged the green to approximately 6,000 square feet.  Rees Jones made subsequent changes to the green prior to the 1988 US Open so that it would be more sympathetic in scale and design with the other greens on the golf course.

The hole played to 300 yards in 1913; 326 yards long on Flynn plans; 338 yards in 1988 and 335 yards long today.

Flynn rerouted the hole from a straight away short par 4 into a dogleg left.  Flynn designed and moved the green 57 yards northeast from the original location.  It is in this location on the 1930s aerial and in the 1988 and 1999 programs.  This brings the left side hill into play as it hides the new green for all except a long and accurate shot properly placed along the right side of the fairway.

Flynn built a new back tee according to the Flynn plans 26 yards behind and 20 yards to the right of the original tee.  It was built on top of a ridge so that it was unlikely to hit into the slope immediately in front of the old tee.  The new Flynn tee location required a bridge to be built from the tee to the fairway over the depression.  It was this upslope directly in front of the old tee that took driver out of Ouimet’s hands, as he wanted to hit a more lofted shot to minimize the chance of embedding his ball in the hillside.
 
A left fairway bunker and mound was shown to be added on the Flynn plans on top of the highpoint along the left.  The mound was constructed but the bunker is not apparent on the 1930s era aerial.  Rees Jones added three bunkers on the left fairway on the hill prior to the 1988 Open.  The first of these bunkers appears to be in the location of Flynn’s intended bunker location.  Flynn’s fairway was much wider than it is today, incorporating most of the left side hill.

A pre-existing small right greenside bunker was used as by Flynn as an end of the fairway bunker at the point the hole turns to the left.

The Flynn plans show a bunker short left and one left greenside with a single bunker on the right front of the green.  It appears that this was not the final Flynn plan as the 1930s aerial shows a series of four or more bunkers on the right side of the green as it is today.  Rees Jones may have returned the bunker scheme to the 1930s era photo.  

The aerial shows that a large single bunker on the left of the green was constructed as in the Flynn plans.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Good show. Ask--and it shall be done!  

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