[Michael George]

This is difficult because there are so many Great courses to choose from!  
 

If any of them were actually Great they would actually be easy choices.

Note:  I have not seen the latest greatest ... Shooting Star or Gozzer Ranch (or Alotian or Martis Camp or Dallas National).  However, for the last 15 years, whatever is the newest Fazio course has continually surpassed his last great courses in the minds of panelists.  To me, that's a sign that they are all excellent courses but that none of them are Great.  A truly great course is not so easy to surpass your next time out.

Tom:

I would agree with you re: why Fazio has not developed a course on a great oceanfront property.  It seems to me that many of his clients (not all), but many, have more than great golf on their minds.  Further, he clearly is not a designer of links style golf courses and many oceanfront properties are best if designed as links golf (he simply would not be a good fit at Bandon or Barnbougle).   I also agree with Andy that Fazio has received many great "mountain" sites to build golf courses - Wade Hampton, Mountaintop, Diamond Creek, Shooting Star, Gozzer Ranch, Glenwild and others.  I believe that in terms of "mountain" terrain, he has received the some of the best opportunities in the country.  Meanwhile, Renassaince has only worked on Rock Creek (maybe Commonground).  I may have missed 1 or 2 others, but it certainly has not been a major portion of its work.  So I think the issue comes down to what one calls a "great site" as I love great "mountain" courses as much as ocean courses.

However, in addition to your thoughts, I also think that Fazio suffers a little from the Dye problem.  He made something out of nothing at Shadow Creek and I think that has probably labeled him to a degree.  

Further, I disagree with your point that his newest course always seems to be the best.  I think if you look at this string, Victoria National is a pretty consensus #1 and that was an early design.  Same with Wade Hampton.  In fact, my biggest problem with Fazio courses is that many of his later designs look so similar and are not as good as they should be.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that he took too many jobs at once, was stretched and did not dedicate the proper level of on site time to each project.  Accordingly, during his busy years before the downturn in the economy, he just used general design principles for some of the courses.  However, courses where he supposedly dedicated himself to the project have received much higher praise, like Victoria National and Alotian.

Don't know if I am right, but just my impressions.

[Jason Thurman]

Good post Michael. Just FYI, CommonGround is not even remotely mountain golf. It's one of the flattest courses I've played.

[Matthew Petersen]

Good post Michael. Just FYI, CommonGround is not even remotely mountain golf. It's one of the flattest courses I've played.

Yeah, it's essentially a city parkland course that happens to be at elevation.

[Tom_Doak]

However, in addition to your thoughts, I also think that Fazio suffers a little from the Dye problem.  He made something out of nothing at Shadow Creek and I think that has probably labeled him to a degree.  

Further, I disagree with your point that his newest course always seems to be the best.  I think if you look at this string, Victoria National is a pretty consensus #1 and that was an early design.  Same with Wade Hampton.  In fact, my biggest problem with Fazio courses is that many of his later designs look so similar and are not as good as they should be.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that he took too many jobs at once, was stretched and did not dedicate the proper level of on site time to each project.  Accordingly, during his busy years before the downturn in the economy, he just used general design principles for some of the courses.  However, courses where he supposedly dedicated himself to the project have received much higher praise, like Victoria National and Alotian.

Don't know if I am right, but just my impressions.

Michael:

To the first point, it's also somewhat a matter of cost effectiveness.  Fazio's style is "opulent," and somebody with a coastal property may not be thinking they need to be opulent in what they build on it.

I will give you that Wade Hampton, in particular, and Victoria National [even though it's not my cup of tea] are the Fazio courses which have stayed near the top of the charts for a few years now.  The others listed here are mostly among his most recent designs, which seems to disprove your premise that he stopped doing his best work when he got busier.  I suspect part of that is that certain of his associates were prepared to do something special when they got the opportunity to be more hands-on.  And I wouldn't fault Mr. Fazio for building a lot of projects at once if that's what he wanted to do -- he recognized years ago that some of his clients really wanted a lot of his time, but that others really didn't care, so long as the course and project were financially successful, and I'm sure he budgeted his time accordingly.

[JNC Lyon]

TomD.

Has Fazio ever gotten a piece of land to work as good as your best courses?

You're kidding?   Fazio has continually gotten great pieces of land to work with.  Desert, ocean front, low country and mountains. Plus he has huge budgets.

Sean, Tom and Joel,

You should check out Camp Creek outside of Seaside, FL.  If that's not a great piece of property, I don't know what is.  A decent course in nominal terms, but relative to what it should have been, it's pretty horrid.

Also, maybe there is a reason that Fazio doesn't get those pieces of property to begin with...

[Michael George]

Tom:

I agree on the opulent designation and also agree that such opulence does not work on oceanfront property.   In fact, I think we have an example as Fazio did Pelican Hill, which has not been as well received as I am sure the owners originally planned.   My guess is because of this opulence factor to a degree.

Never thought about the associate trying to make a name for himself issue.  But I am sure you are correct.  I just have played a couple of Fazio's where I really don't think he used the land as well as it could have been and I always (correctly and incorrectly) attribute that to an architect not really spending the time on the property. 

The best example is Sand Ridge.  It is a good golf course, but not great.  However, the site is pretty good and I think it could have yielded a much better golf course.

[Chris Munoz]

Has anyone been to the Dominican Republic, Puntacana and experienced Corales at Puntacana Resort & Club-Tom Fazio Design.  Tom Doak has visited the island couple of years ago, but didnt have a chance to see Corales.  and I know a couple of you guys have been to Cap Cana-Punta Espada-Jack Nickalus Signature course and Casa De Campo-Teeth of the Dog.  just played the Links course there this past weekend.  

Check out Corales, it has been open for 3 years now and have recieved great reviews.  6 holes on the water and the inland holes are just as good as the ocean holes.  we moved about 1.8 million cubic yards of dirt.  wall to wall sea isle supreme paspalum.  

let me know if you need anymore questions regarding Corales.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I agree on the opulent designation and also agree that such opulence does not work on oceanfront property.   In fact, I think we have an example as Fazio did Pelican Hill, which has not been as well received as I am sure the owners originally planned.   My guess is because of this opulence factor to a degree.

Never thought about the associate trying to make a name for himself issue.  But I am sure you are correct.  I just have played a couple of Fazio's where I really don't think he used the land as well as it could have been and I always (correctly and incorrectly) attribute that to an architect not really spending the time on the property. 

The best example is Sand Ridge.  It is a good golf course, but not great.  However, the site is pretty good and I think it could have yielded a much better golf course.

Michael:

Sand Ridge was one of Tom Fazio's many Best New award winners -- in fact, the year it opened Victoria National was second and Lost Dunes was third, which is why I remember so well.    So, clearly, it was a matter of giving the people what they were looking for at the time.  I have no idea how much time Tom F. spent personally on that project or how it fits into your thesis ... I was just encouraging you to stop speculating why projects turned out the way they did, if you have no inside knowledge and "success" is all a matter of opinion, anyway.

[George Pazin]

Chris Munoz, a "My Home Course" piece would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

Has anyone been to the Dominican Republic, Puntacana and experienced Corales at Puntacana Resort & Club-Tom Fazio Design.  Tom Doak has visited the island couple of years ago, but didnt have a chance to see Corales.  and I know a couple of you guys have been to Cap Cana-Punta Espada-Jack Nickalus Signature course and Casa De Campo-Teeth of the Dog.  just played the Links course there this past weekend.  

Check out Corales, it has been open for 3 years now and have recieved great reviews.  6 holes on the water and the inland holes are just as good as the ocean holes.  we moved about 1.8 million cubic yards of dirt.  wall to wall sea isle supreme paspalum.  

let me know if you need anymore questions regarding Corales.

Hi Chris, how is life in the Dominican treating you?

As soon as I saw your name I knew what you would be saying -- and it's a good point, considering that we were interviewed for the job of designing the oceanfront course at Corales, and Mr. Fazio was hired instead.  [I think the decision had something to do with the owner expecting to move 1.8 million cubic yards of earth, but it might also have been entirely personal.]

I still haven't seen Corales, but I did see Punta Espada down the road and was generally impressed with it, and wondered why it hadn't got more ink.  Then again, the whole time I worked for Mr. Dye he used to bang his head on the wall about how he couldn't get the writers and the golf magazines to take Teeth of the Dog more seriously -- it's got a lot more oceanfront holes than Bandon Dunes, and it's a lot easier to get to from the east coast, at that.  So I suspect it's only people's fears of the third world that keeps those places from being more well known.  But you should definitely post a few pictures of your place, especially something from ground level where we can tell what's really going on.

[Matthew Petersen]

Tom:

I agree on the opulent designation and also agree that such opulence does not work on oceanfront property.   In fact, I think we have an example as Fazio did Pelican Hill, which has not been as well received as I am sure the owners originally planned.   My guess is because of this opulence factor to a degree.

Never thought about the associate trying to make a name for himself issue.  But I am sure you are correct.  I just have played a couple of Fazio's where I really don't think he used the land as well as it could have been and I always (correctly and incorrectly) attribute that to an architect not really spending the time on the property. 

The best example is Sand Ridge.  It is a good golf course, but not great.  However, the site is pretty good and I think it could have yielded a much better golf course.

That's interesting, Michael, as I would argue that the opulence doesn't hurt Pelican Hill nearly as much as the reality of it being an imperfect site. Sure, you can see the ocean from much of it, but there's only about 300 yards of "oceanfront" property among those 36 holes (and even that deserves those quotes).

I don't know enough about the area to know what was developed and what was not prior to the course's being built, but the hotel and numerous homes in the area are on land that would seem more suited to golf than what was actually used for golf.

[Michael George]

<sub>Michael:

Sand Ridge was one of Tom Fazio's many Best New award winners -- in fact, the year it opened Victoria National was second and Lost Dunes was third, which is why I remember so well.    So, clearly, it was a matter of giving the people what they were looking for at the time.  I have no idea how much time Tom F. spent personally on that project or how it fits into your thesis ... I was just encouraging you to stop speculating why projects turned out the way they did, if you have no inside knowledge and "success" is all a matter of opinion, anyway.</sub>

Tom - you are correct that I should not speculate and should just judge results.  Based on results, Sand Ridge is a nice course and worthy of playing, but it is not in the top 10 in the State of Ohio.  More importantly, I think the opportunity was better than the result as it really is a great property next to a sand quarry and Bill Conway was committed to building a great golf course.  #13-#18 are really good holes that  Fazio deserves credit.  However, the opening holes on the back 9 are average and the routing has a huge disconnect between 11 green and 12 tee.  The front 9 is bland and in my opinion uninspiring.

While I have not played either, I would hope that VN and LD are better.

[Brad Isaacs]

While top fives are always interesting, I find in the case of Fazio it might be more profound to ask, have you ever played a bad  Tom Fazio course? 

[Greg Tallman]

While top fives are always interesting, I find in the case of Fazio it might be more profound to ask, have you ever played a bad  Tom Fazio course? 

Man, this course seems to be the answer to a lot of questions that involve the word bad...

Mahogany Run, USVI

In fariness it was 30+ years ago and with his uncle.

[Wayne_Kozun]

If the National of Canada is on the list then "Which Fazio we be talkin' bout here?"

Wayne, my understanding is that Tom has co-credit for National.

Was that always the case or did that change once Tom become will known.  Wasn't this one of the first courses that he worked on with Nunky George.

[Tom_Doak]

If the National of Canada is on the list then "Which Fazio we be talkin' bout here?"

Wayne, my understanding is that Tom has co-credit for National.

Was that always the case or did that change once Tom become will known.  Wasn't this one of the first courses that he worked on with Nunky George.

Wayne:

I believe I have it right that Tom Fazio started working with his uncle right out of high school.  I know he was on site at Waynesborough C.C. in Philadelphia, which was built in the mid-1960's.  But I don't know when he started getting design credits officially.

[Mike_Young]

If the National of Canada is on the list then "Which Fazio we be talkin' bout here?"

Wayne, my understanding is that Tom has co-credit for National.

Was that always the case or did that change once Tom become will known.  Wasn't this one of the first courses that he worked on with Nunky George.

Wayne:

I believe I have it right that Tom Fazio started working with his uncle right out of high school.  I know he was on site at Waynesborough C.C. in Philadelphia, which was built in the mid-1960's.  But I don't know when he started getting design credits officially.

From what I have seen he got credit for Cariari country club in San Jose , Costa Rica while working for uncle in 1970.  Some there say it was his first...I don't know....

[Pete Balzer]

1. Escondido
2. Squire Creek
3. Branson Creek
4.Maroon Creek
5.Red Sky

[hhuffines]

Pinehurst #4 and #6 may not be bad but surely aren't  great.  I'm still trying to evaluate #8. 

[Sam Morrow]

1. Escondido
2. Squire Creek
3. Branson Creek
4.Maroon Creek
5.Red Sky

Escondido was that good?

[Pete Balzer]

1. Escondido
2. Squire Creek
3. Branson Creek
4.Maroon Creek
5.Red Sky

Escondido was that good?

Very solid test. Straight forward. 
Firestone West- honorable mention

[Howard Riefs]

Tom:

I would agree with you re: why Fazio has not developed a course on a great oceanfront property.  It seems to me that many of his clients (not all), but many, have more than great golf on their minds.  Further, he clearly is not a designer of links style golf courses and many oceanfront properties are best if designed as links golf (he simply would not be a good fit at Bandon or Barnbougle).   I also agree with Andy that Fazio has received many great "mountain" sites to build golf courses - Wade Hampton, Mountaintop, Diamond Creek, Shooting Star, Gozzer Ranch, Glenwild and others.  I believe that in terms of "mountain" terrain, he has received the some of the best opportunities in the country.  Meanwhile, Renassaince has only worked on Rock Creek (maybe Commonground).  I may have missed 1 or 2 others, but it certainly has not been a major portion of its work.  So I think the issue comes down to what one calls a "great site" as I love great "mountain" courses as much as ocean courses.

Again, if ever opened Chileno Bay here on Cabo will be pretty near the top of a Fazio list.

Greg,

Would Fazio's Chileno Bay course qualify as "great oceanfront property"?

[Greg Tallman]

Tom:

I would agree with you re: why Fazio has not developed a course on a great oceanfront property.  It seems to me that many of his clients (not all), but many, have more than great golf on their minds.  Further, he clearly is not a designer of links style golf courses and many oceanfront properties are best if designed as links golf (he simply would not be a good fit at Bandon or Barnbougle).   I also agree with Andy that Fazio has received many great "mountain" sites to build golf courses - Wade Hampton, Mountaintop, Diamond Creek, Shooting Star, Gozzer Ranch, Glenwild and others.  I believe that in terms of "mountain" terrain, he has received the some of the best opportunities in the country.  Meanwhile, Renassaince has only worked on Rock Creek (maybe Commonground).  I may have missed 1 or 2 others, but it certainly has not been a major portion of its work.  So I think the issue comes down to what one calls a "great site" as I love great "mountain" courses as much as ocean courses.

Again, if ever opened Chileno Bay here on Cabo will be pretty near the top of a Fazio list.

Greg,

Would Fazio's Chileno Bay course qualify as "great oceanfront property"?

Howard, At one stage it would have consdiered a great oceanfront site as the oiginal developer was going to dedicate considerable amount of oceanfront land to the golf courses. The plan was 18 Nicklaus / 18 Fazio with each finishing with 3-4 holes along the water. When that developer executed the buy/sell and got out (WITH MONEY!) the plans changed dramatically and the course of which I speak comes no closer than perhaps 3/4 mile from the water.  The site is quite good but not oceanfront. Same guy was in a deal on another piece of land here in Cabo and had C&C do routings all of which had a ahndful of holes on the water. This became a sticking point between he and his JV partners and the project stalled and was eventually scrapped when the economy went south.

Givn the land acquisition costs you are not likley to see golf near the water unless those who purchased the land default or sell at fire sale prices. The numbers just don't pencil out.  

[Michael Whitaker]

If the National of Canada is on the list then "Which Fazio we be talkin' bout here?"

Wayne, my understanding is that Tom has co-credit for National.

Was that always the case or did that change once Tom become will known.  Wasn't this one of the first courses that he worked on with Nunky George.

Wayne:

I believe I have it right that Tom Fazio started working with his uncle right out of high school.  I know he was on site at Waynesborough C.C. in Philadelphia, which was built in the mid-1960's.  But I don't know when he started getting design credits officially.

Wasn't Wild Dunes his first original design credit?

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

Wild Dunes was Tom Fazio's first solo design credit, but a lot of courses before that were credited to "George and Tom Fazio".

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