[Jay Flemma]

Aww Redman, you're killin me!  Atunyote is absolutely insipid.  Most boring flavorless course ever.  But what really torques me is them having people calling themselves the "Augusta of the North" and coming out and saying they are...this is a quote...

"as good as Kiawah, Whistling Straits, Pinehurst No. 2...nice company."  from their marketing director.

It was the second worst course I played last year...orchard creek was the worst.

[Jordan Wall]

Have not yet played a Fazio course but what are your opinions on Aldarra, the only Fazio in Washington??

Its one of the nicer ones around here from what I have heard, but does it compare with some of his other good courses??

[redanman]

Jay

Don't die yet.

Call it politically correct maybe, never insipid -  very difficult to call "bad".

I am sure that many people get off that course with a huge smile on their face.  I prefer Kaluhyat to Shenandoah to Atonyote, in that order architecturally, but Atonyote was perfect in a lot of ways.  Have no doubt that the course delivers exactly what was ordered.  

JF.....Weren't you impressed with the teak water boxes that held the Fiji bottles perfectly?  NOW THAT'S Feng Shui!

But seriously, it is one of the best routed Fazio's ever - logical and sensible, totally walkable and pleasant.  Their routings can absolutely suck because they don't even consider it, quite frankly, Atonyote can't be called bad by any stretch.  Not daring, I agree, but very pleasant and enjoyable - nothing wrong with that.  (And I'm a "Fazio-basher", don't forget.)  

I enjoyed my 73 with two eagles (my only round with two eagles last year - on the course that means "Eagle" in the Oneida language!) from the very back tees last August. But I assure you that I still liked the course on its own merits in spite of it yielding me a good score.



Also, I did not earlier comment on the highly regarded THE Estancia which I find a little "too swell".  I don't get the buzz on that one.  Just lovely, but nothing is added to the world of architecural knowledge.

Over and over that's my knock on the Fazio group.  For the so-called "Top of the Heap"  they never take many if any real chances.  Very safe, politically correct, hard to hate but not pulse-racing except in very few spots.  If they only built more greens like Galloway #1 and more holes like Trump's Bedminster # 14.  

I hate to raise Barney's ire, but that course (VN) has too many features that require firm whilst "Firm" and bentgrass in southern Indiana can't exist but precious few weeks a year.

[Wayne Freeman]

SDZ-  I played Shady Canyon last month and was very eager to experience it..  I left with a less than "I've been wowed" opinion.  It is certainly a haven for the wealthy-  super private with megamillion dollar homes including Mark McGuire's 15 mil or so investment.  The clubhouse is just awesome as is the restaurant and the practice facility is as good as I've ever seen in Calif.  I thought the course was good but definitely not great and not anywhere close to making anyone's best list.  I felt cramped on a lot of the holes with a bunch of the environmentally sensitive areas to deal with and I thought too many of the fairways were pinched in, especially on the front nine. I enjoyed the back nine a lot more.  The most annoying thing was that on several holes the distances from green to tee were huge even in a cart.  And walking the course appeared to be absolutely out of the question. The greens were fantastic and I thought the best part of the course.  

[David Kelly]

Over and over that's my knock on the Fazio group.  For the so-called "Top of the Heap"  they never take many if any real chances.  Very safe, politically correct, hard to hate but not pulse-racing except in very few spots.

But you have to look at the clients that they go after and who goes after them.  They are generally not building courses for the likes of Dick Youngscap and Mike Keiser. They are building courses for people who can't wait to get Fazio's signature on the dotted line so they can start selling lots. If nothing else Fazio's group is extremely adept at delivering what the client's want.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd put Sage Valley in Fazio's top 5 along with:

Wade Hampton
Gallaway
Victoria National
Shadow Creek

[Sean Leary]

Have not yet played a Fazio course but what are your opinions on Aldarra, the only Fazio in Washington??

Its one of the nicer ones around here from what I have heard, but does it compare with some of his other good courses??

Jordan,

The Local (Non-GCAers) golfers think it's great, in part because they don't know what great is.  Most GCAers that have played it think it's very good. I really don't know how much "rater" play it gets. 3-8 and 13 - 18 are really good stretches of holes. It is definitely a "good " players course, as the course gets better the farther back you play it, from a strategy perspective. In terms of comparing to other Fazio designs, I would think that it would be in his top third. Maybe a top 200 modern?

[redanman]

If nothing else Fazio's group is extremely adept at delivering what the client's want.

nutshell

[cary lichtenstein]

If nothing else Fazio's group is extremely adept at delivering what the client's want.

nutshell

But, where Fazio falls down I believe, e.g., Dallas National which I think is an excellent course is in his greens which are not that challenging. Did the client request that, or was the client so excited over the great topography that he assumes Fazio would make him great greens to boot.

Now at Sage Valley, Fazio delivered the entire package, routing, topgraphy, shot values, great greens and bunkering. Did the developer ask for more there, or was Fazio a bit remiss at the other site?

[Pete Buczkowski]

It never ever gets a mention here and has routing problems just like a lot of other Fazios revered here.  It's not top anything except tope surprize that there's this many good golf holes at WDW.  The Palms is jsut awful, the Pines is much better,, albeit easier for the pros if that matters, but overall, since golf is so bleepin' expensive these days I guess that $175 is probably the tare these days.  

I'll admit that it's been a couple of years, but most of the course hole for hole is almost as good as the courses at BDR and WW, so that's under rated in my book.  I certainly don't mean to imply that it's world-class, just never mentioned.  Fazio builds a lot of good golf courses all using a formulaic style and Osprey is a nice place to slip out at WDW, better than a lot of "famous" courses.

BTW, Cirba has a nice take there.

Appreciate the response.  I do disagree that Osprey has as many good holes as WWPB - the front nine at Osprey just does nothing for me.  Perhaps familiarity with the course provides a different perspective.  The back nine is solid but still a notch below either nine at WWPB.  The total difference is at least 3 notches on the Doak scale for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.  

You might be thinking about Palm and Magnolia at Disney.  I'm not a big fan of either, but I do enjoy Eagle Pines, the Dye effort.  It might be a better design than Osprey, but the land is not nearly as good.

[Jay Flemma]

Redman...they told Fazio build us a course that can host a major.  He did not deliver that.  But I do like the fact that he gave them what they asked for in a course and ended up playing the casino for chumps.

Two of the last things I care about are feng schwee (pardon the pun) and what I shot.  I shot a grillion at Crystal Downs and regard it as one of the most amazing golf days of my life and shot a solid 85 at Atunyote and didnt like it.

The following courses by Fazio are better and cheaper, World Woods, Ventana Canyon (I play 36 in summer and get a swank room for $199, great natuive vegetation)  (and pine hill)  Barton Creek is better also, in fact of all the Fazio's I've played, Atunyote bored me the most.

There is one inescapable fact.  Atuinyote has ZERO lines of charm.  ZEE-ROE.  Everything is doctrine of framing, no thinking required.

[redanman]

You might be thinking about Palm and Magnolia at Disney.  I'm not a big fan of either, but I do enjoy Eagle Pines, the Dye effort.  It might be a better design than Osprey, but the land is not nearly as good.

I'm pretty familiar with WDW having spent a long time in FLA, school in G'ville and Tampa.

Eagle Pines is very good, perhaps better in a number of ways than Osprey, but Osprey is better than a lot of Fazios (you certainly have more experience there than me, it is certain), I still think even with the flaws that you outlined well, it just goes to show you about Fazio's greatness, I suppose.

Palm-lots of experience with that one, I find it relaxing and fun to play with players of various abilities and it has some stimulation and beauty to it.  Great?  Never, but solid and fun.  You don't even need a few beers to enjoy it.

Magnolia?  Awful. A W F U L.  A six pack of Zima doesn't even help.

Jay

Pine Hill underwhels me and angers me to be such as it is in the shadows of Pine Valley, playing off the name and failing so miserably.

World Woods loses charm fast with repeated plays.

Atonyote, I think is meant to be a flattering course, I seriously doubt that a world-championship testing course was asked for as Fazio has shown that he can deliver those. (Listen to Cirba if you don't believe me about Trump-Bedminster.)

JF, if you have inside info re:Atonyote, so be it, but it is a very good course for a Native American casino to send its high-rollers to.  I wasn't bored, it was easy (although sometime I shoot the same kind of rounds as I described I shot at Atonyote at very challenging courses, too.  I have to analyze teh course, not my score and if I gave any indication that i felt Atonyote was great because I played it well, I'm sorry, that was not intended.  I am way past equating greatness with the kind of day I have.

As an e.g.  at ato remain un-named top 50 modern-debuting course this year I also shot under 75 is with a sub-par second nine of 33 on a very difficult course that beat the shit out of my playing partners, two of whom are better overall players than me on most days.  

In that case it was recognized that the greatness perhaps spurred me to play very well, as I often see that happen but any time I get to tee it up after 1 p.m., I can shoot a good number anywhere if the stars in my last 3 lumbar vertebrae are aligned well.

So please don't mistake a good score at Atonyote causing me to convey that more is there than actually is, sorry.  However, you won't get me to knock Atonyote.  Everything that Fazio builds is framed.  Tooooooooooo® much.

[Ted Curtis]

I have always liked the Disney courses (with the exception of the Magnolia -- zzzzzzzz......), especially because it gives me an excuse to sneak away from our family's sixth, seventh and eighth rides on It's a Small World!

I know World Woods gets a bad rap by some -- someone here said correctly that it gets old after repeated play -- but it's still a pretty cool one-time round of golf.

I'll put Shadow Creek up among the best in this grouping.

[redanman]

Ted

Not to put you on the spot, but Shadow Creek is wonderful, a trail-blazer and still pretty unique inthe world of golf?  Is it great architecture?

[Ted Curtis]

Ah, the wonderful question that is the center of this whole discussion group: Is it great architecture?...

I remember going to a museum as a kid -- maybe it was the Guggenheim -- and seeing paintings by Jackson Pollock. What in the world?!! It was strange and ground-breaking and heart-pounding and absolutely wonderful.

I remember my teacher saying, "Oh, let's move along, that's not really great art" and moving on to something else that played by the rules and fit into a preconceived notion of "great art."

So, what makes "great art"? What makes "great architecture"...  

[redanman]

Ted

You must be a lawyer, I won't hold it against you.

 

[Matt_Ward]

As someone who has played 50+ TF courses I would rate the following in my top five in no particular order ...

*Glenwild (Extremely underrated because so few have played it. Credit Digest with rating it #1 in the Beehive State). One layout where the altitude doesn't mean squat.

Dallas National (Cary -- better green sites than you care to admit)

Galloway National (better than most let on -- the main issue is the incessant bugs off the nearby Bay -- can be unplayable in the summer months.

Karsten Creek -- arguably the most demanding of layouts I have encountered from TF. Solid design and never suffers fools.

I personally like Black Diamond and Victoria National for my final slot. I can include / exclude either one depending upon my mood.


Credit to Fazio for handling the e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y tight acreage tied to Oyster Bay GC in Woodbury, NY. The place is barely 100 acres and Fazio did well there -- the finishing four holes are indeed one of the best finishing stretches in all of public golf I have played in the Empire State.

Most overrated -- Wade Hampton & Shadow Creek -- the former because it uses the natural terrain well but the holes are lite all the way -- ditto the wet weather that always seems to wreak havoc in the summer months. The latter because it's more of an engineering marvel than a serious architectural addition.

Honorable Mention in that category -- The Preserve. Wonderful terrain but is the poster child for those who see TF as nothing more than using cut'n paste formulaic of other holes he has designed.

FYI -- I have not played the Trump National GC in Bedminster just yet - but I have heard various good comments from a range of people who would be identified as Fazio fans.

[Ted Curtis]

That obvious, huh?

Went to law school, practiced (sports law, representing LPGA golfers and others) for about seven years while also doing a lot of freelance mainstream journalism. Now, I teach sports management at a south FL college and write on golf and sports business full time.

[PCCraig]

I am currently posting from Forest Creek and I can say now that the new (north) course is as good as everyone says it is.

[Tom_Doak]

Oh, the one I forgot is the one Tom Fazio himself told me twenty years ago was his most overlooked design -- Johns Island West, Vero Beach, FL.  The greens are a little on the severe side but that's okay by me, and the variety of landscape looks was very impressive for south Florida.  It would be a solid 7 on the Doak scale, and I haven't seen five courses by Mr. Fazio [out of about 25 I've seen] which I would give a higher score.

[Bill Gayne]

I haven't played many of Fazio's courses but the top two for me would be Sea Island's Seaside and Barton Creek's Canyon Course. Sea Island started with the work of Colt and Allison but it is so dramatically different it's a Fazio course and quite good.

[Jay Flemma]

redman, I've played WW7 7 of last 8 years and love it.  way more lines of charm than atunyote.

[Ted Curtis]

Anyone like any of JIM Fazio's stuff? Trump International in West Palm has some silly stuff (the waterfall at the 17th is kinda odd...), but the first hole is one of the best holes anywhere, any course.

[redanman]

JF

no agument about WWPB being a different animal than Atonyote, but it's no where near as good as most rankings have it.  Like saying Spyglass is a world-class course:  Both have their moments but don't come close by any standards at maintaining them.

Fazio doing the Pine Valley thing is very scary considering that he is a "favorite son" of Philadelphia and has lots of pull.  "Looks" and "is" are rather different things.  Consider - especially for one who acknowledges the  (He doesn't even know what they are) Classical Courses as categorically inferior.

When the Fazio design group excels, they do it only for short stretches.  (Other than excelling at really nice beautiful, perfect Doak 5-6's) Even at Bedminster which is very good, several stretches of holes make me and at least two others at least as well-known on here as me shake respective heads and ask "Why isn't more of this done?"

JF

Give me your Doak scores on  (I'll go first)

WWPB
Atonyote
BDR-Q

I'll give you 6, 4-5, 6

Bedminster gets a 7
Shadow Creek gets a 9- (but because it is such a marvel, not on its architectural merit (expect an objection!! from Ted. )

[Jay Flemma]

Redanman, I like Doak scores, but, I give out Jay scores...and I give them out in five categories, out of seven stars (includoing half-stars...)

here they are:

World Woods, Pine Barrens:

Design – Six and 1/2 stars
Conditioning – Six and ½ stars
Natural setting – Five stars
Value – Seven stars
Overall rating – Six and 1/2 stars

Atunyote:

Design - Two and 1/2 stars (all ratings out of seven)

Natural Setting - Two and 1/2 stars

Conditioning - 6 stars

Value - One-half a star

Overall rating - One and one-half stars

Using doak scale, world woods 9, Atunyote 0/3. (you know...how doak rates zero AND something sometimes?

I wrote articles on them for my book and for golf observer.  Here are links to the articles.  I'd be curious of your view on my concept of "architectural echo"...the amiunt an architect resurrects solid architectural features like redans, puinch bowls, biarritzes, wind, etc.

 Atunyote’s creators pray to all the false idols of golf design, expense, a big-name architect and length/difficulty. The result speaks for itself. After the typical opening excitement, RTJ II’s Kaluhyut (Atunyote’s predecessor) went from a top 10 finish in the “pricey” list for its first year, to a footnote.

Disappointed but not probative or introspective enough to examine the whys, the owners didn’t learn from one mistake and made a second - they paid every expense to build Atunyote. They were determined to deliver what they were sure the golfing public wanted. The result was a long, but overly wide strategy-light, overpriced gaudy arcade of a golf course that summarizes all the design mistakes of the 80's and early 90's and boasts a price of $175 that is completely unjustifiable. In short, waterfalls, stained glass windows in the clubhouse and "Augusta White sand" in the bunkers are the drawing points according to the media relations team.

“OH NO. WE HAVE NOTHING LIKE THAT HERE.”

Upon my arrival for media day, the staff took the greatest pains to show me the “magic gate” through which no one can pass unless they have a tee time - not even locals wishing to make purchases in the proshop. They next directed me to the large stained glass window in the grill room, the wood-paneled lounges and lockers and the waterfall. I was informed “that’s Augusta white sand in the bunkers.”

I asked specific questions about design features - punchbowls, cross hazards, random bunkers and the like and repeatedly got the same answer - “Oh No. We have nothing like that here. But aren't the bunkers beautiful?"

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2005/08/atunyote-golf-club-at-turning-stone.html

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2004/11/world-woods-gc-pine-barrens.html (note...two years old...)

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