GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture
Tilly on TOC...
Jim Nugent:
Tilly says TOC was magnificent when players used the guttie. But new conditions (i.e. technology) have made the course obsolete. They must change it, if it is to remain a championship site.
Where have we heard that before?
In fact, they did change TOC. They added 500 to a thousand yards, took out and added a few bunkers, changed some tees. Still, the course must be counted among the easiest on the British Open rota. It gives up lots of scoring records. In 1927 Jones won with 285, smashing the old record. The lowest scores relative to par have been made there.
Even in 1921, at least some of the par 4's could be driven. (And the winner that year used a controversial wedge with grooves that was banned a few days after his victory. The tech issue is not new.) Snead drove at least 3 par 4's in 1947: 9, 10 and 12.
Seems like TOC requires heavy wind and/or lousy weather to protect itself. That seems to me a weakness in a championship venue.
T_MacWood:
Jim
Is the measurement of championship course how it protects itself against par or how successfully it identifies the best player?
You appear to belong to the US Open school of thought.
Jim Nugent:
--- Quote from: Tom MacWood on March 12, 2006, 11:22:35 AM ---Jim
Is the measurement of championship course how it protects itself against par or how successfully it identifies the best player?
You appear to belong to the US Open school of thought.
--- End quote ---
Tom, I think every pro tournament course identifies the best player that week. Don't see how it could be otherwise. Isn't that how the best player is defined? The one who scores the lowest that week?
Any course that gets the best 80 or 100 players is probably going to be won by one of them. TOC gets them. They usually win. So would the 500th ranked course, such as Bellerive CC.
Difficulty -- or lack of it at TOC -- clearly mattered to Tilly. I was trying to point out some things that back him up. And that made me wonder if a course that depends on bad weather is really a great championship course. What do you think?
It is interesting to see one of our most beloved GCA.com architects take a position so diametrically opposed to the one I usually see here.
T_MacWood:
--- Quote from: Jim Nugent on March 12, 2006, 02:16:28 PM ---
Tom, I think every pro tournament course identifies the best player that week. Don't see how it could be otherwise. Isn't that how the best player is defined? The one who scores the lowest that week?
--- End quote ---
Jim
So in other word the best player will always emerge no matter the quality or nature of the golf course. Than what separates a "championship" course from the non championship course?
I think Tillinghast's comments were made in the context of the superiority of American golf architecture, I wouldn't read to much into them...especially thirty plus years after he last saw the course. The great majority who knew St. Andrews well considered it the pinnacle of championship golf, although it was certainly not unanimous.
How well did Tilly know St.Andrews...his main complaint with the course in 1901 were its unseen hazards in the fairway, which he acknowledged were not a problem with those familar with the course.
Jim Nugent:
--- Quote from: Tom MacWood on March 12, 2006, 06:59:50 PM ---
Jim
So in other word the best player will always emerge no matter the quality or nature of the golf course. Than what separates a "championship" course from the non championship course?
How well did Tilly know St.Andrews...his main complaint with the course in 1901 were its unseen hazards in the fairway, which he acknowledged were not a problem with those familar with the course.
--- End quote ---
Tom, I think most if not all pro tournaments are played on championship courses. The winner, by my definition, is the best player that week. If 90 of the world's top 100 players are at the tournament, probably one of them will win. I'm just throwing out this number, but my guess is that is true of any of the 500 top-rated courses in the world.
Tilly himself said he knew TOC well. I certainly don't. Never seen it, except on TV. I do know it has a number of drivable par 4's. Not just now, either: even in the 1920's they were driving greens there. Jock Hutchison, the 1921 winner, came three inches from a hole-in-one on number nine.
I've heard several people on this DG say without wind or bad weather, TOC has no teeth. The fact that it has yielded the lowest scores at the Open Championship backs them up. So I still wonder, how championship is a course that needs bad weather to keep the pro's from mauling it?
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