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Phil_the_Author

Tilly on TOC...
« on: March 09, 2006, 03:42:08 PM »
In June, 1934, A.W. Tillinghast wrote this observation about the Old Course at St. Andrews:

“We know that there are many who will listen to no word of criticism of the Old Course at St. Andrews. Indeed, no course in the world is so rich in tradition, but we assert (and we know the old course well) that as a collection of holes it has too many weaknesses to be regarded as truly championship. This seems almost like speaking disrespectfully about one's grandparent. Frank, we know of no place on earth where we would rather spend a golf holiday, and harking back forty years we appreciated its greatness as we followed a "guttie" ball around a magnificent course of that period. But conditions have changed in forty years. Old St. Andrews has not. We can pick out fifty better championship tests in our own country.”

Accepting the validity of that statement, how do we account for TOC to be viewed by many as being among the finest courses in the world today?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2006, 04:12:10 PM »
Easy - because we don't make the sole criterion "championship test."

If we did, I'd agree with Tillie.

But there is a LOT more to what makes up golf course greatness.

TH

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2006, 04:22:22 PM »
Phillip,

What did he know.  ;)

Bob

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2006, 04:34:09 PM »
Phil,

Just because A.W. Tillinghast wrote that, it doesn't mean it's true  :D
jeffmingay.com

Phil_the_Author

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2006, 04:55:01 PM »
Jeff,

I am not commenting on the validity of the statement, rather I asked that if we accept it as a valid viewpoint, what may have occurred during the 70+ years since that would resurrect the status of the course and that does include viewing it as a championship test?

During these same years, many another course considered both great and to be a true championship test (e.g. - Augusta, Baltusrol...), have undergone major changes, whereas TOC has had little done to it.

Yet many today consider it what Tilly, and obviously others, did not, a championship venue and great course.

Part of my reason for bringing this up is that we discuss necessary changes to courses in order to keep up with time and technology, yet maybe TOC is actually teaching us something?


wsmorrison

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2006, 04:56:19 PM »
Phil,

Did Tillinghast specify what the weaknesses were in his mind?  

I've played the course many times, with persimmon/balata and titanium/proV1-x and I don't see weaknesses as it relates to my game.  As for the pros, except during calm or damp conditions, it remains an excellent test of golf.  Not bad for 500+ years old  ;)

I don't agree with Tillinghast.  What did he know?  He probably was hanging out with Joshua Crane too much.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 04:57:48 PM by Wayne Morrison »

JBergan

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2006, 05:04:01 PM »
I think that may have been written by a guy named Burbeck, but erroneously attributed to Tillie.   :P

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2006, 05:14:48 PM »
Phil,

I understand. But it's hard for me to consider Tillinghast's point valid. In turn, it's difficult for me to answer your question as well.
jeffmingay.com

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2006, 05:25:14 PM »
By every objective criteria, Tillie has a point. Look at the scorecard, look at pictures, watch TOC on TV. Listen to Rich. You'd think world class players would slice and dice the place.

But they don't. In fact, TOC has held up remarkably well. With far fewer changes over the years than most venues that regularly host majors.

At the last two Opens, played in the most benign conditions imaginable, no one tore the place up (well, maybe Tiger did in '00, but he tears up a lot of courses nobody else does).

So Philip has a point. Maybe, just maybe, TOC has something to teach architects. Even in 2006.

Bob

P.S. Tillie was dead wrong, of course. I suspect he knew he was wrong as soon as he said it. The more interesting question is his hidden agenda. What was he really trying to say? What services was he trying to sell?


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2006, 05:40:05 PM »
The contour in and around the greens at TOC will always challenge the best players, no matter how far they're driving the ball off the tees. That's undoubtedly TOC's greatest strength.

Think of holes cut short left at 2, behind the mounds; immediately behind the single mound at 4; front at 6, just over the swale; far right at 7; front at 8, just over the junk; front at 11; anywhere at 12 (!); short right at 14, behind that great contour there; front right at 16, just over the rise; of course, behind Road bunker at 17; and, front left at 18, just over the Valley of Sin.

Man, those are some tough places to hole your ball! Especially when TOC's running fast.  

Moreover, TOC's greens (the entire course for that matter) is covered by a beautiful hodge podge of grasses. When putted, the ball will occasionally hop and change direction unexpectedly; even during an Open I presume.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 05:43:19 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2006, 05:45:24 PM »
I just wish Hell Bunker had some remaining influence on the play of #14.  Even with the tee set out of bounds at 618 yards at last summer's Open, no one was in the bunker in four days.  Every player I saw over three days routinely flew the bunker.

As Rich says, the green countours are so good that not all those who carried Hell made birdie.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2006, 06:04:05 PM »
In June, 1934, A.W. Tillinghast wrote this observation about the Old Course at St. Andrews:

“We know that there are many who will listen to no word of criticism of the Old Course at St. Andrews. Indeed, no course in the world is so rich in tradition, but we assert (and we know the old course well) that as a collection of holes it has too many weaknesses to be regarded as truly championship. This seems almost like speaking disrespectfully about one's grandparent. Frank, we know of no place on earth where we would rather spend a golf holiday, and harking back forty years we appreciated its greatness as we followed a "guttie" ball around a magnificent course of that period. But conditions have changed in forty years. Old St. Andrews has not. We can pick out fifty better championship tests in our own country.”

Accepting the validity of that statement, how do we account for TOC to be viewed by many as being among the finest courses in the world today?


Maybe he was there on a calm day.

Tom Huckaby,

I'd tend to agree with your identifying of the qualifying word, "championship".

But, we also know that TOC has been lengthened to meet the hi-tech advances over the years.
[/color]

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2006, 06:07:44 PM »
Patrick - right on.  That was going to be my next question:  I wonder if Tillie foresaw the lenghtening of TOC by 1000+ yards from his day...

TH

Phil_the_Author

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2006, 07:18:27 PM »
Bob,

You asked, "Tillie was dead wrong, of course. I suspect he knew he was wrong as soon as he said it. The more interesting question is his hidden agenda. What was he really trying to say? What services was he trying to sell?"

He was selling nationalistic pride and the superiority of American golf course design with the proof that the world's best players were being developed here.

This can be seen in what he wrote in the entire article. I have highlighted & bolded the portion I previously quoted from. You will see that my inference was partly out of context, yet still refers to a strong belief (IMHO) that he now held:

"When the United States Walker Cup embarked, there were forebodings of possible disaster, yes, probable defeat was predicted by some. We refused to cotton to these prophecies, stubbornly perhaps, but in reality because we could not vision1 our young men1 staggering into various and sundry sandy pitfalls on the St. Andrews links, there to remain indefinitely, nor could we actually picture them being blown off the old course by howling, gales. It seemed to us that if the golfers of Great Britain were depending on success by whistling up the wind, without improving the golfing powers of their team, there was not even a remote chance of the Walker Cup changing its shelf, a not altogether tragic event if it did happen. But after regarding critically the Walker Cup teams from over-seas during the past few encounters, we unfortunately were singularly unimpressed and consequently quite unresponsive to reasonings which seemed to deal, chiefly with wind. It was well that our young men did not develop a wind complex when they put foot on Scotch soil.

With the courage of conviction, we stated editorially that we could not vision a British victory at this time. Now that the meeting of 1934 is written in history, and certainty without an intent to humiliate those who battled vainly against the devastating assault of the invaders, we find it proper to give answer to a question which comes to us. Why is it so? Is it a decadence of British golf? How may we regard the apparent present supremacy of American play?

Now this query is founded on fact, records of the past decade. Numerous as answering opinions have been, we, too, have our thoughts. We believe that more outstanding players
are being developed here in the United States because generally throughout the nation our golfers play over more testing courses than do they in Great Britain. Undoubtedly there are some truly great constructive minds across the water, designing some really fine golf holes and certainly there are great British courses—but too few. But do the golfers of Britain admit this or concede it? A few of them do; most will not.

It seems to us that our cousins are disinclined and reluctant to emerge from tradition, which is a great thing, but newer ideas obviously develop greater golfers. We know that there are many who will listen to no word of criticism of the Old Course at St. Andrews. Indeed, no course in the world is so rich in tradition, but we assert (and we know the old course well) that as a collection of holes it has too many weaknesses to be regarded as truly championship. This seems almost like speaking disrespectfully about one's grandparent. Frankly, we know of no place on earth where we would rather spend a golf holiday, and harking back forty years we appreciated its greatness as we followed a "guttie" ball around a magnificent course of that period. But conditions have changed in forty years. Old St. Andrews has not. We can pick out fifty better championship tests in our own country. So it seems to be throughout the entire kingdom. The reconstruction of
holes, famous of old, but quite without merit in these days, is done grudgingly and frequently in the face of stout opposition. Over here we have no, battle to fight with traditions. When we recognize a bad or unworthy hole we get rid of it quickly and replace it with one that develops skill,—and this practice is getting more general every day.

Certainly the British have every right to play their golf as they see fit. It is not ours to criticize, and our answer to the question of why their golfers seem a bit backward in keeping pace with the times is intended alone for our own people, who are curious about it all, and ask for our opinion."

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2006, 07:28:38 PM »
I'll reply by way of analogy.

For those of you happily married, ask yourself:  Is your wife the most beautiful woman in the world?  After answering honestly then ask: is she the most beautiful woman in the world to you?  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

T_MacWood

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2006, 08:36:43 PM »
Phil
When did Tilly last visit St.Andrews?

What was the title and/or theme of the article your quote came from?

Phil_the_Author

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2006, 09:38:25 PM »
Tom,

His last visit was in 1901.

This is part of the editor's opening comments from the June, 1934 issue of Golf Illustrated. Note how he wrote, "Harking back over 40 years." That would probably be in reference to his first visit in the spring of 1895, which would be just less than 40 years before.


Peter Pallotta

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2006, 10:45:06 PM »
Philip
it's interesting to me that this thread has developed in the way it has. When I read your original question, my take on it was quite different.

You asked: "Accepting the validity of that statement, how do we account for TOC to be viewed by many as being among the finest courses in the world today?"

While I'm not sure I would accept the validity of the statement wholeheartedly, I can safely assume that Tillinghast knew a great deal about golf course architecture. So the question remains: why did he view TOC so very differently than most of us (including me) do today?

I think it may be because we have accepted as gospel the idea that "the Scots invented the game of golf on land, i.e. TOC, ideally suited to the game". What we fail to recognize, however, is that this is a gospel that has come to the fore and won over the majority of its adherents only in the last 75 years or so. It is not, evidently, a gospel that Tillinghast believed in; nor one, I think, that we should EXPECT him to have believed in.

I would phrase the alternative [edit:that is, the true] gospel of TOC this way: "The Scots, practical people that they are, started playing a game on the ONLY land that was available to them, i.e. on land that was of no use for anything more important, like the growing of food, for example. It wasn't that the LAND was particularly suited to the game of golf; it's that the GAME OF GOLF (its strategies, its skill-sets etc) conformed itself in the early days to what that original land allowed for/dictated".

Not a particularly pithy gospel I know, but my point is that Tillinghast was at least AWARE of the distinction between the two gospels, whereas we - for all good reasons, like romance and the love of tradition - have made the one canonical and the other heretical [edit: that is, we've rejected the old 1901 canon, and embraced the c. 1930 and onwards heresy].  

That's fine; let's celebrate the heresy - and one day I hope to do so on the most magnificent course in the world. But let's not blame Tillinghast if he stuck to the canon and argued, in essence, that the game might be played more 'fully' on lands/new courses that WERE designed purely and specifically for the game, at least as it was being played in Tillinghast's day.  

Does this make any sense?

Peter    
 
 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 11:14:43 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2006, 10:55:13 PM »
Peter,

It makes a lot of sense to me. One of the things that I got out of that article was how different the competitve aspect the world of golf enjoyed during those years.

It seems, at least to me, that there was a bit of an inferiority complex felt by those in America toward their brothers across the pond. The desire to compete as a team seems to have been much greater. Going through old issues of golf magazines of the day contain numerous articles about the matches contested, professional and amateur, men and women, and the perceived growing superiority of the American game.

Today, how many golfers could tell you what the Curtis and Walker Cup competitions are?

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2006, 11:39:31 PM »
Technology has helped TOC as a championship venue as 7,9,10,arguably 11,12,14,18 and 5 are in calm conditions half par holes.Makes it interesting.Really can't argue with the champions it has produced either.

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 12:55:28 AM »
Here is the 1901 article that Tillie wrote it also includes some interesting pictures, my favorite is Tillie at the turn getting a ginger ale.

Interesting to note that his complaint for the course then was a well hit shot finding its way into a sand-pit. Fun stuff!

Tully

Tillie visits St. Andrews 1901

Jim Nugent

Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2006, 01:41:07 AM »
Technology has helped TOC as a championship venue as 7,9,10,arguably 11,12,14,18 and 5 are in calm conditions half par holes.Makes it interesting.Really can't argue with the champions it has produced either.

What were those holes like when the course was shorter, but also players did not hit the ball as far?  Were they half pars then, too?

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2006, 04:17:44 AM »
Take a look at the list of who has won the Open there.  That is why it is a championship golf course.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2006, 07:25:44 AM »
Philip -

Thanks for posting the longer quote.

The reason for my question was that Tillie in '34 sounded much like RTJ in the 60's. When selling his services, a big part of RTJ's pitch was that Golden Age courses were obsolete and not up to the modern game.

The pitch worked like a charm for RTJ.

I'll bet it would have worked for Tillie too, but for a minor problem called the Great Depression.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 08:52:10 AM by BCrosby »

mike_beene

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Re:Tilly on TOC...
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2006, 07:45:49 PM »
I think there have been half pars there over time,but different holes perhaps.17 was once a true half par,I would say even in the Watson-Seve time frame.!8 ,7 and 10 havent been lengthened ,12 just happened,11 is a half par from 50 yards(6 and 1/2 I think)The other difference is the amount of carry distance.I don't see how you could play 7,9,10,12 as one shotters in Persimmon days,even if there was some length relationship.A lot of the new distance is at 2,14,and13.Actually the OB tees give a better angle to play away slightly from the wall.

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