Split greens

[Mike Dickson]

After briefly chatting with a friend about split greens, I'd like some qualified opinions ( ) on the concept of 2 green sites for one hole.

Can a hole with 2 greens actually be good from an architectural/strategic standpoint or is it mainly a marketing feature for the golf club?  Is there an optimal way to align the greens (side by side, one farther back)?

Also, what would motivate an architect to design such a hole?

[Doug Siebert]

It could be done for wear reasons if the greens are small, or for turf health if they are sheltered from the air moreso than others, or because its a par 3 and gets a lot of ball marks.  Or maybe one is exposed to the elements more and becomes unplayable when its really windy so the other one can be used.

[ForkaB]

I can understand "split greens" for agronomic/seasonal purposes (e.g. the "winter" greens in Japan and Scotland), but I find ones that arise from dithering (e.g. the 9th at Pacific Dunes) to be irritating and unsatisfactory.  If I were Mike Keiser, I'd take a D9 to the upper green at 9 PD, build a proper and brilliantly sited "half-way house" there, and keep the (much better--for a number of reasons) "lower" green.

[Jim Sweeney]

At both alternate gren par fours I've played where I've actually played to both greens (Old White at Greeenbriar and Indian Ridge in Oxford, Ohio, one of the greens is a "weak sister," and leaves me wondering why it exists. In neither case is the "regular green" challenged by size of location.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't have a clue why there are two completely different greens and green sites, separated by at least 100 yards, on what I think is #11 or #12, long par 4 at World Woods Pine Barrens.  Can anyone shed any light on this mystery?

Either green would work, but the elevated right green is a whole lot harder - no run up option, tough bunkering and potential for hidden pins.  The left green is open and inviting even if 20 yards further.

But what's the point?  Neither green appears to be in danger of heat and humidity stress, and both are large enough to handle lots of play.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think its usually just a neat feature in the minds eye of the gca or owner.  Sometimes a creek, tree, or other natural feature suggests two smaller greens.

I actually just proposed on on either side of a tree line and was shot down - it does take extra square footage for the same target area to do two greens over one, and the Owner wondered why we would build in such cost or maintenance.

I agree that it is hard to make double greens of equal interest to where one or the other doesn't become the clear favorite, just as it is with double fairways.

Nicklaus did one at CC of the South, with about 3000 SF on either side of a creek, which I believe does a good job of that.

[TEPaul]

The two holes I know best that each of two greens are PVGC's #8 and #9. Both holes did not have two greens originally but both alternate greens were to solve a problem of one kind or another and I think that's interesting. Both work fine and don't compromise the play of the original green (or green site). I think a hole with two greens CAN increase variety too.

Frankly, I think the 9th hole of my own course, GMGC, would be a better hole with two greens---the present one and a basic restoration of the original one.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, why not just restore to the original green?  What would be the advantage of two different greens?

[TEPaul]

Bill:

For the same reason it was moved in the first place----most women golfers and weaker players would have a very hard time with it as they obviously did back in the teens, 20s. 30s.

[Bill_McBride]

So you would set up two greens for the hole and the player would decide which to play to based on ability or gender?  

Or would the easy green be used on ladies day and the hard green on weekend mornings?

[TEPaul]

Bill:

Whatever.

Whatever works best and was most convenient at any time or on any particular day. Things like that seem to scare people at first. In practice it isn't hard to do when a club gets used to it. The point is the variety is so much better.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:
Whatever.

An honest answer, gotta love it!

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Bill_McBride
YaBB God


Posts: 2572





  Re:Split greens
« Reply #9 on: Today at 10:33:41am »    

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So you would set up two greens for the hole and the player would decide which to play to based on ability or gender?  

Or would the easy green be used on ladies day and the hard green on weekend mornings?  

Bill -

We have exactly that situation on our 1st Hole at Woodway.

JWK

[Tom_Doak]

Rich G:  If Mr. Keiser had made us just build one green on the 9th at Pacific Dunes he would have wanted it to be the upper green, which is one main reason I suggested both.    I also liked the lower tee on the tenth better, and thought if we just used the upper green for nine that tee would eventually be abandoned for lack of use.

I like both greens on nine because the hole sets up entirely differently for them -- when the flag is on the upper green, you want to hit a tee shot which stays up on the right of the fairway, which is much harder to do than turning one over long left.  I understand they will use both greens for the Curtis Cup.

I agree with Mike's original post that it is a strange gambit and something not to be done often -- I've done it once in 25 courses to date.

[ForkaB]

Tom

Understood.  I like the lower tee on 10 better too, which is one of the reasons why I thought that you could bulldoze the upper 9th green.

Vis a vis your 1 in 450 record, as Jacqueline Susanne once said, "Once can often be Too Much."

[RJ_Daley]

http://www.thornberrycreekcc.net/pages/9holecard.pdf

I hope the link works.  Then use the magnify feature on pdf file to zoom into the scorecard to see the routing better.

This is the first 9 holes of what is now a 27 hole complex.  This first 9 holes opened years before the parade of homes second phase 18 championship course.  The design was done by Rick Jacobsen.  The double greens concept offers the opportunity to use multiple tees and dual greens to go around a second time to play a different course configuration.  It is a sporty and fun little design.  Definitely, Jacobsen designed something "out of the box" from conventional design wisdom.  

[TEPaul]

"but I find ones that arise from dithering (e.g. the 9th at Pacific Dunes) to be irritating and unsatisfactory.  If I were Mike Keiser, I'd take a D9 to the upper green at 9 PD, build a proper and brilliantly sited "half-way house" there, and keep the (much better--for a number of reasons) "lower" green."

Richard the Magnificent:

The fact that Pac Dunes 9th hole has an upper and lower green which you don't like is the very same reason Mike Keiser has the big bucks and you don't and the same set of reasons Tom Doak gets paid the big bucks and you don't.

Furthermore, "DITHERING" is one of the most successful new design modus operandis, particularly when both owner and architect get into some really serious dithering. It looks something like the mating dance of the African MuMu bird. It's glorious to behold and of course the product of it is generally sublime.