[Dan Herrmann]

Just looking thru Golfweek's modern ratings, and Mr. Weiskopf has SIX courses in the top 100.

Is Tom up there with Doak/C&C/Hanse/ and the other usual suspects?

I've not played any of his designs, so I'm looking for insight from those who have.

Thanks!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

One reason may be that he hasn't built courses on the east coast or in Florida. Since I travel to AZ frequently, I have played some of his courses there,either his solo efforts or joint with Jay Morrish. All were well done and some have gathered obvious critical acclaim. He is now concentrating his efforts in CO, WY and MT. He did have plans to build in Naples, FL but that deal went south.

[Joe Hancock]

I've heard good things about Forest Dunes in northern Michigan, but have not played it.

Joe

[Steve_ Shaffer]

He has built in HI, Scotland and Mexico as well. Sports Illustrated rated him #6 on players turned designer/architect last year:

http://tinyurl.com/qbx3w

They had to amend this list after initially omitting Weiskopf!!!!!

There is no website that I could find for Weiskopf Design.

[Andy Troeger]

I don't know that I'll ever get to play it, but I think Forest Highlands looks like a wonderful place to play golf from all of the photos I've seen of it.

I'll also second Joe's comments about Forest Dunes. When I was asking for suggestions regarding a potential Northern Michigan trip it was very highly recommended.

[Tim Pitner]

Weiskopf seems to be involved in a lot of housing development projects which, by their nature, limit how transcendent a course can be (in my opinion).  The course of his I've played, The Ridge in Castle Pines, is largely routed through high-end housing, but has some strong holes nonetheless.  I'd say, generally, his work seems to lie in a middle ground between the somewhat formulaic work of Nicklaus (at least in the past) and the more creative, minimalist work of Doak and Coore and Crenshaw.  Loch Lomond sure looks like a stunning course.

[redanman]

Dan, my take:

Six is probably too many.  I would speculate that some of it is fascination with the regionality.  


Same reasons we don't discuss Hurdzan and Frye?  I see them pretty simialrly with different terrain and locations.

Fun to play, no reason NOT to.  Generally one finds immaculate conditioning.  Good, not great architecture, politically correct, no major errors, solid if unspectacular.  A little sterile, perhaps.

Just not at the topmost level.

I used to enjoy The Ridge at Castle Pines in Colorado when I lived there, but a lot of it is great scenery.  Tom builds on very scenic pieces of land more often than most, I guess.

[cary lichtenstein]

When I first played Corderilla in SteamBoat by Weiskopf, I thought it was a reallyt good course. However, the more I played it, about 20 times, it tired me.

[Tim Pitner]

Cary, I think you're thinking of Catamount Ranch in Steamboat.  Cordillera, of Kobe Bryant fame, is in the Vail area (I think Nicklaus and Irwin have courses at Cordillera).

[Ryan Farrow]

Those pictures on Seven Canyons website are amazing. Sedona Az is a beautiful place but this has to be one of the best non-seaside backdrops ive seen.

[Wayne Freeman]

I was fortunate to play Double Eagle last year in Galena, Ohio.  It was featured on Shell's WWOG-  built by a multimillionaire steel man who was pissed that The Golf Club wouldn't cut their membership from 125 to 75-  the 350 acre parcel with only 1 house on it is absolutely fabulous, and one of the best manicured courses in the country.  There are only about 40 members and for the first two years the course was openthe owner sent out 2 maintenance guys to follow every group and replace their divots with new sod.  And the driving range was resodded every night!!  Or so I heard.  There are no set tees on the course.
   At any rate,  my opinion of Weiskopf zoomed up after playing it.

[Jay Cox]

Wayne, you're the third person I've heard comment on Double Eagle (besides Tom Doak in the Confidential Guide), and all three have talked a lot about the conditioning and the experience and not at all about the architecture.  I spent a good deal of time badgering the other two into answering the following question:
"Did you not comment on the architecture b/c it's a 5 while the peripherals are a 10, or because it's an 8 or 9 while the peripherals are a 10?"
Given that your opinion of Weiskopf went up, I'd guess you're in latter category - but I'd love to hear some specifics about why.  My friends seemed to fall into the latter category too, but all the specific architectural positives they cited seemed like they could apply just as well to hundreds of courses.

I must know whether it's worth a good deal of grovelling to get on.

[Jim Sweeney]

The US Mid Amateur Championship is at Forest Highlands this year, so you can either qualify or spectate if you want to see it.

Also, Double Eagle has on two occasions been one of the two courses hosting the US Open Sectional qualifying on Monday folowing the Memorial. I haven't seen the schedule this year, but again a possibility to at least see the course.

The last time it was there, in 2004, the pros sort of panned it (take that as you want). Stewart Cink shot 62 (which followed a 61 in the AM at The Lakes).

I haven't played DECC but having been there I would ditto the comments on conditioning. AS you may know, GCA newbie Terry Buchen did the initial grow in and was super. there in its early life.

[redanman]

Double Eagle is spectacular in conditioning et.al. and is at the top of the Weiskopf pile, but still  basically fits what I posted above.  Architecturally, it has lots of good holes, certainly no bad holes and really no spectacular holes.  It is an absolute joy to play, it is a top notch course, but it is not extrordinary and it is definitely below The Golf Club and probably a little better than Muirfield Village for some, maybe not as good for others.  It is a core golf course and has that going for it.

The Irwin course in Cordillera is actually a Phelps (father AND son, I believe) course.  The second nine has some spectacularly beautiful holes especiall in the autumn.

Weiskopf (with Morish) did the (once again fitting the description above but towards the lower end) course in Wolcott, just west of Edwards and CC of the Rockies (JWN et. al.,) and Cordillera, just north of I-70 visible form the road, the name escapes me.  Eagle Springs, thank you google.

[Rick Baril]

Can anyone comment:  Is there a significant difference between Weiskopf’s work now – compared to when he was working with Morrish?    

[Wayne Freeman]

Jay-  I think it's worth the effort to get on Double Eagle if at all possible.  I played it the same day I played The Golf Club-  what a treat.  I agree that The Golf Club may be better, but they're both fab-   Double Eagle is on a large piece of property, but pretty effortless to walk,  as the holes flow so nicely along.  Every hole is different with nice elevation changes and several neat doglegs. A couple of forced carries on some of the par 4's are spectacular.  It has a great cape hole on the back side along with a delectable driveable (for many) short par 4, which I think is one of the things Weiskopf tries to always include in one of his courses.  I don't know much from peripherals, but I wouldn't pass up another chance to play it.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dan, et al:

Let me just say this -- Seven Canyons in Sedona, AZ is as Texans say, "all hat and no cattle."

Great scenery but little in terms of hole originality and creativity.

If you want to see better examples of Tom's work head to Lahontan in the Sierras in California and Silverleaf in Scottsdale, to name just two.

The Weiskopf mantra is to work with well-heeled private developers and more often than not, favor working in the western time zones.

[redanman]

Can anyone comment:  Is there a significant difference between Weiskopf’s work now – compared to when he was working with Morrish?    

Not terribly different, the same basic formulae including the obligatory "Drive me" par 4 and  fairly templmatic variety of par 5 lengths.

[Evan_Green]

Can anyone comment:  Is there a significant difference between Weiskopf’s work now – compared to when he was working with Morrish?    

Not terribly different, the same basic formulae including the obligatory "Drive me" par 4 and  fairly templmatic variety of par 5 lengths.

For an example of quite a good drivable par 4, done with Morrish, take a look at this thread a few weeks ago where I posted pictures of the 4th at Troon G&CC in Scottsdale (5th post in the thread):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22214

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played Silverleaf in Scottsdale and it is a really good course in absolutely perfect condition - it is unusual as it is the only course I have every played with only 3 par 3s.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Here is an article about Weiskopf and his design philosophy...

http://www.pga.com/news/features/spikeongolf/spike_on_golf041904.cfm

Didn't realize he has a course in South Africa.  

I think Weiskopf focus on private, real estate and out of the way locations has something with the lack of discussion of his work.

Let's face it though there are a lot of architects that don't get a lot of discussion here.

[JohnV]

The US Mid Amateur Championship is at Forest Highlands this year, so you can either qualify or spectate if you want to see it.

Or Officiate.  

I've played a couple of Weiskopf's courses.  I always liked Broken Top in Bend a lot.  At the time I was there, I put it at the top of my list in the area, ahead of Crosswater, primarily because there was more variety in the length of holes and it didn't beat you up as much.

[Ian Andrew]

I think the Golf Digest interview is a factor, he managed to offend a lot of people and came off poorly in my opinion.
Strong opinions are one thing, but calling Trent Jones preschool is over the top. He is an architect with talent, but not quite as much as he will tell you he has.

[Steve Lang]

 

Context context..

We toured Forest Dunes near Roscommon last year and it is a very very nice layout.. with modest topography.. most here would love the bunkering detail..

I have to wonder about the business model of locating it there, but i think its been discussed before on gca.com as  union endeavor or such..

Don't forget about La Canterra Resort in San Antonio where they've held TX Open for years.  Very challenging hilly venue..

[Doug Sobieski]

In my opinion, Double Eagle is among the most overrated courses to appear on any Top 100 list. If you strip away the experience and the remarkable conditioning, I think you'd hear a different story from most people. It's a very nice course, but my $0.02 is:

- Greens are too flat to challenge good players.
- Not overly taxing from the tee
- Very few complex decisions to be made from the tee
- The routing tackles the ravine that runs through the property "head on" too often.
- Too many "blah" holes that don't make you want to play them repeatedly (the par 3's in particular)

If you took away the "experience" and put up a temporary clubhouse and charged $100, I think it would be a nice CCFAD in just about any city.

I certainly enjoy playing there once in a while, but there isn't anything strategically interesting that makes me want to rush back. In fact, there's a poorly conditioned public course equidistant from my house that offers more strategy, and I'd choose to play there if given the option. It's called Indian Springs, and even Matt Ward likes it  

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