There's something wrong with the greens..

[Anthony_Nysse]

Gary,
  I'm under the same impression as you-I really doubt that Doral was overseed judging by the tv. The Honda Classic at Mirasol this week shouldn't be overseed, because there too far south to have to. Like I said, wait until Bay Hill and TPC-Those will be overseeded.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[ForkaB]

I've passed this on once and I'll pass it on again.

A good pal of mine was summoned from the bar to caddy for Ernie Els when the latter played Dornoch a few years ago.  My pal (2-3 hcp, 65+ age) raced out there and then staggered onto the 1st green to watch Ernie sinking 5-6 footers one after one after one after one........

Ernie looked at my pal and said something to the effect of:  "Sorry Mate, but I don't really need a caddie.  These greens are true."

[Steve Okula]

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

You wouldn't call the greens at TOC contoured?  Have you never played there?

I am also curiuos as to how one describes TOC greens as flat?

[Sean_A]

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

You wouldn't call the greens at TOC contoured?  Have you never played there?

I am also curiuos as to how one describes TOC greens as flat?

I too wondered about this comment.  There is plenty of movement on TOC greens to kepp a player busy-with or without wind.

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

Doug, Steve, Sean, et. al.

There are a lot of flat bits to the greens at TOC.  In fact those places are where they put a lot of the pins when the turistas (like Pat Mucci ) come to town.  Don't blame Pat and others for thinking that what they see is what others (i.e. the guys playing in the elite tournaments) get.

[Tony Ristola]

From Brad Klein:
"Pat, it has nothing to do with architects and everything to do with superintendents, agronomy and increased consistency. The greatest differences on Tour courses and on all greens today are not only increased speeds but greater consistency from one green to the next. There's less variance than ever and thus Tour pros don't need to adjust as much as they used to during a round from green to green."

This goes beyond putting; I'll add that it's not just the speed consistency from green to green and course to course, but modern construction methods coupled with maintenance (except for majors) you don't get the differences from green to green in firmness. In the old days, some greens would be notoriously hard, some softer (and it could have been only in spots). When the flag isn't a sucker, today's pro on his game can aim at the flag with total confidence.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

You wouldn't call the greens at TOC contoured?  Have you never played there?

Doug Siebert,

YES, I've played there.[/color]

Sean,

There's a big difference between a green having movement and being contoured or highly contoured.

[David Ober]

Jimbo,

What were they overseeded with and at what rate?  The GCSAA Tournament Fact Sheet says the greens are tifdwarf bermudagrass cut at .100"  and from my cheap little television your sure couldn't see any mowing stripes that are common on overseeded bermudagrass greens.

Gary

I agree with you completely: They didn't look like any overseeded bermuda greens I have ever played.

[Mark_F]

Patrick,

Whether it's pro's or not, nobody wants severe greens anymore.  

We've all become a bunch of insipid nancy boys -  "where's  the sprinkler? , "that green's too small", "that green's blind", "that green slopes away".

Pathetic. Anything a little out of the ordinary, that might result in constant interest as opposed to immediate gratification, is howled down.

Nobody wants to take the time to think about a green anymore.

Sean,

Come on, the Old Course's greens aren't particularly contoured, apart from a couple.

Look at the road hole green.  What a joke. It makes a perfect setting for tea and scones, not a Major championship.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

You wouldn't call the greens at TOC contoured?  Have you never played there?

I am also curiuos as to how one describes TOC greens as flat?

Steve Okula,

Who described the greens at TOC as flat ?

Mark,

I agree with you, anything highly interesting, unusual or highly unusual is condemned as unfair, too difficult or gimmickie.

The collateral elements have taken priority at the expense of the core features.
Pretty flower beds, water features and eye candy are the forms substituted for substance in the greens.[/color]

[Steve Okula]

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

You wouldn't call the greens at TOC contoured?  Have you never played there?

I am also curiuos as to how one describes TOC greens as flat?

Steve Okula,

Who described the greens at TOC as flat ?

O.K. Pat, obviously I'm missing the point. The TOC greens are not contoured and they are not flat.

What are they?

[David Ober]

Gary,
  I'm under the same impression as you-I really doubt that Doral was overseed judging by the tv. The Honda Classic at Mirasol this week shouldn't be overseed, because there too far south to have to. Like I said, wait until Bay Hill and TPC-Those will be overseeded.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Upon re-watching the tournament (I Tivo'd it), I am now convinced that the green were overseeded. There were a couple close-ups that clearly showed the rye grass mixture. The best view was when the zoomed in on Phil Mickelson's ball on 18 (I think). You could very clearly see that the greens were not unadulterated bermuda.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Yes,
If you hit a par five in two it simply counts as a green in regulation.

With reference to the topic..Tiger's ability not to miss anything inside 10 feet is unbelievable..yes he reaklly is that good.
However as long as the tour wants to play on those boring style of golf courses those kinds of figures will always be there, for somebody each week.

I am more impressed when a guy plays a US Open od the masters without a 3 putt..that is really impressive.

How many of get excited about watching golf on Tv anymore at the venue?
Not many times a year..that is a shame.
I know that Tiger has said behind closed doors that it would be great to play more events at courses like Hidden Creek/Kingsley Club/Boston Golf Club{not that he mentioned those courses specifically,but just to give you the idea}
but we all know the tour is not going to do that, just like they are not prepared, to harden the greens or do anything to alter the current bomb it, chip and putt style of tour golf.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: What do we mean by greens that are "true" - I think that at the professional level it means that someone at Tiger's level can read the greens and what they see is almost exactly what will happen.  So if Tiger reads the putt and determines what speed he will hit it then he knows how much it will break.  No question in my mind that not only is he the best putter out there, but he is the best at reading putts.  I don't care what course you put him on I will take him to read the putt and then make it over anyone else - period.  That's why he's the best on the weekends because week in and week out when the pins are in the tough placements Tiger can hit the best shots and make the best putts.

It is also my belief that this is what creates a very difficult situation for many superintendents.  They would like all the greens on their course to putt the same but I understand that to be extremely difficult to accomplish.  Also, sometimes it is best that this not be the situation as the more severely contoured greens simply cannot be at speeds as great as those that are not as severely contoured.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Okula,

To draw an anology, I'd say that green # 1 at ANGC has movement in it, but that green # 5 and # 6 are contoured or highly contoured.

I'd say that the greens at TOC have movement, but aren't highly contoured.

There is a distinction.

[Anthony_Nysse]

David,
  There was not one mention about the greens being overseeded the past week. In fact, many of the reporters were talking about grain in the BERMUDA and the setting sun and how to read grain. They commented how David Toms grew up on Bermuda grass greens and has still to win on it. They talked about how guys wheo grew up on Bermuda grass can mre easily adjust to putting on bent rather than the other way. I can try to find out, but what you may being seeing is some mutations in the the tifdwarfs. They were not overseed. There is no need to overseed in Miami, Naples or West Palm Beach, which is why they don't.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

I believe that clubs have and continue to overseed in Palm Beach County.

Overseeding, the choice and the benefit of overseeding is so dependent upon the weather, it's really a roll of the dice.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Pat,
  Maybe Cary can help out more here, but last I was in WPB, (2 years ago_ courses like Old Marsh, Bear's Club and Mirasol (site of this weeks Honda Classic) did not overseed-It stays plenty warm. No need to. Hell, alot of courses in my area do not overseed and we're 500 miles north. I'd like to see a benefit of overseeding other than color....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

Pine Tree, Boca Rio, Adios and I believe even Seminole have overseeded their greens.

I've seen seasons that were cool and cloudy and those courses that overseeded benefited.

Other times courses don't overseed, enjoy warm sunny weather and all is well.

Each Superintendent in South Florida must make the call, but remember, many of these courses are populated by snow birds who come to Florida during the winter months expecting good playing and visual conditions ( of course it's open to debate as to what constitutes "good").

That pressure can result in the overseeding process.

[David Ober]

Tony,

Pine Tree, Boca Rio, Adios and I believe even Seminole have overseeded their greens.

I've seen seasons that were cool and cloudy and those courses that overseeded benefited.

Other times courses don't overseed, enjoy warm sunny weather and all is well.

Each Superintendent in South Florida must make the call, but remember, many of these courses are populated by snow birds who come to Florida during the winter months expecting good playing and visual conditions ( of course it's open to debate as to what constitutes "good").

That pressure can result in the overseeding process.

I'd be willing to make a small wager that they were, indeed, overseeded. It looks like they were lightly overseeded, but I believe they were.

I'll call the course tomorrow (if I remember). :-)

[Anthony_Nysse]

Pat,
  I'm all too familiar with the pro and cons of overseeding as we review that at Long Cove every year. I know that Seminole does not overseed-It allows them to play very fast and firm.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Dan_Callahan]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but what is the difference between a contoured green and a green with movement? Does it have to do with the severity and/or frequency of the elevation changes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

Contouring is different from pitch and slope and to me incorporates substantive not subtle elevation changes.

[jeffwarne]

Tony,
Doral most DEFINITELY did overseed greens on every course except the Red in the early 90's when I worked there.
They even overseeded fairways and roughs one year on the blue(1995 i think) Tom Kite compared it to westchester.
It was a mess and an ugly transition.
the greens were PERFECT in the winter during that time.

They did not overseed on any courses for most years after the Floyd (Ray, not the hurricane) butchery and regrassing -I'm not sure what they did this year.
It looked quite green ,but that could be from an abnormally warm weather causing the bermuda to have no dormancy.

The greens on the Doral's other courses got pretty ratty in Jan and Feb without the overseeding,and there were alot of negative comments by guests about the not only the color,but the performance of the greens.
as Patrick said ,the the northern tourists want to see green.

Please say it ain't so that Long cove is considering not overseeding greens in the winter. They are always so pure in the winter.
I guarantee that would be a one time deal as the members (particularly the ones visiting from the north)would have an uproar, regardless of how they played.
When i worked at Long Cove there was an outcry every time they decided not to overseed fairways(usually around mid February when they were in an old divot), and they went back and forth and I would guess had to skip some years for turf health.
I assume you haven't overseeded fairways for awhile and don't intend to.
regards,
jeff

[Steve Okula]

Dan,

Contouring is different from pitch and slope and to me incorporates substantive not subtle elevation changes.

What is contouring if it does not include pitch and slope?

Pat, I usually see your point, but you've lost me here. I have never before heard definitions distinguishing between "movement", "contoured", and "highly contoured". Is there an authority somewhere that records the difference, or is this something you're making up as you go?