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[Charlie_Dusic]

Matt's topic on Bandon Dunes got me thinking that I really like almost all of the holes at Bandon Dunes where as a couple of holes bothered me at the other two courses.  Here are my picks

Bandon Dunes

Underrated:  No. 8 - I am not sure what draws me to this hole, but I just keep thinking about it.

Overrated:  No. 6 - I know No. 9 and 18 are considered weak holes, but I just remember not liking the straight on angle of No. 6 and thinking it could be much more with the setting it enjoys.  Maybe it is a downer from the drama of No. 5 or the feeling that you are going away from the ocean but I definitely had that feeling during the round...

Pacific Dunes

Underrated:  You could argue that all the holes are underrated, but I will go with No. 17, maybe I don't get to play on firm ground enough, but it actually did what a Redan should do compared to a lot of other Redan's I've played with soft greens.

Overrated:  there may not be an overrated hole, but I will say No. 8.  I really like the green and the shots you can play from the right, but I really got lost/let down in the No. 6 through No. 9 stretch when I played it.  This did not seem to happen at Bandon Dunes.  Hopefully it was just the circumstances and it will be different next time.

Bandon Trails

Underrated:  No. 13 - I LOVE this hole.  It seems to not get as much love as some of the others.  The green setting is cool the way it transitions into the hillside and the trouble on both sides is intimidating.

Overrated:  Again the obvious choice here is No. 14, but I will go with No. 5.  I know the green is big and wild, but it almost seemed gimmicky and a little out of place with the forced carry compared to the rest of the course.

[Kalen Braley]

Charlie,

I can't say that I'd agree on 6-9 at Pacific Dunes.  While I didn't get #8, I thought 6, 7, and 9 were nothing short of excellent.  Additionally I would also argue that #7 just may be the best hole on the course.

[cary lichtenstein]

Overrated:  Again the obvious choice here is No. 14, but I will go with No. 5.  I know the green is big and wild, but it almost seemed gimmicky and a little out of place with the forced carry compared to the rest of the course.




[/quote]

I think you got #5 correct. I always thought it was a strange tee shot, that the green was somehow canted incorrectly. I too felt the hole was out of place, but I feel the stretch of middle holes are also out of place starting with 5 and ending with 12.

I also have the same criticism of Frairs Head, the 2 sets of holes in the potato fields.

In both cases, I always thought C & C should have deviated from their minimialist style, and moved enough dirt to give those holes much more movements.

I know I'll catch a ton of flack for these comments, but that's where I see their missing link.

[Jed Peters]

Overrated:  Again the obvious choice here is No. 14, but I will go with No. 5.  I know the green is big and wild, but it almost seemed gimmicky and a little out of place with the forced carry compared to the rest of the course.

I think you got #5 correct. I always thought it was a strange tee shot, that the green was somehow canted incorrectly. I too felt the hole was out of place, but I feel the stretch of middle holes are also out of place starting with 5 and ending with 12.

I also have the same criticism of Frairs Head, the 2 sets of holes in the potato fields.

In both cases, I always thought C & C should have deviated from their minimialist style, and moved enough dirt to give those holes much more movements.

I know I'll catch a ton of flack for these comments, but that's where I see their missing link.
[/quote]

Count me down for someone that "doesn't get" number 5....

[Dan Herrmann]

Charlie,
It's funny, because I'd pitch PD 9 as underrated.  I think the tee shot is wonderful.  But PD 17 is probably underrated only because it's on the way back from the ocean.  But it's a heck of a par 3.

[Tim Bert]

Overrated:  there may not be an overrated hole, but I will say No. 8.  I really like the green and the shots you can play from the right, but I really got lost/let down in the No. 6 through No. 9 stretch when I played it.  This did not seem to happen at Bandon Dunes.  Hopefully it was just the circumstances and it will be different next time.

Charlie - Are you saying that #8 was a let down in the stretch of #6-#9, or are you saying the stretch of #6-#9 was a let down.  Based on what you typed, I think the interpretation is that the entire stretch let you down, but I get the feeling you actually meant #8 was lost in that great stretch of holes.  I just can't imagine that whole stretch being a let down as I thnk #6 / #7 is almost as good as good as any back-to-back short par 4 & long par 4 combo in the country.  I do see that people could consider #8 a letdown.  It was to me my first time around, but on subsequent trips (more approach shots from different angles and different results)  I've come to love the 8th green complex.
__________________________


My nominations:

BD -

Underrated - #18 not because I think it is a great hole but because I think it suffices and it gets panned about as much as any hole on this site.  I just don't see why it is such a terrible finish.

Overrated - #6 is beautiful no doubt, but it pales in comparison to the par 3s on the back nine in my opinion and its cousin (#11 at Pacific) knocks it out when it comes to an oceanside par 3.

PD -

Underrated - As I mentioned on another thread, I love #5.  You don't hear much about it because it gets lost in the great par 4s of the front nine and the amazing par 3s on the back nine.  #5 is up near the top of the list of the par 3s on the course for me.  I love how the green doesn't have a clear cut shape or beginning or end.  It just seems to meld with the surroundings.







Overrated - Over time, #9 has probably become my least favorite hole on the course and I think this conflicts with many people's opinions.  There's not a hole on this course that I wouldn't enjoy playing daily, but after I found the love for the 8th green complex this one moved to the bottom of my list

BT -

Underrated - #1

I don't think anyone thinks this is a bad hole, but I don't hear enough good things about this opener.  It's puzzling from the tee the first time off and the fairway contours are incredible.  It's a great beginning to an amazing opening stretch of holes.





Overrated - #8 was a letdown of a short par 4 for me.  Put me in the camp of those that really like #14.  Knowing that's coming up later in the round leaves this one feeling like an afterthought for me.

[Chip Gaskins]

Most Underrated

Bandon Trails #13 - That green complex may be my favorite in all of golf
Bandon Trails #17 - That green complex is only behind #13 as my favorite in golf
Bandon Trails #3 - Great central bunker off the tee, great layup bunker, great green complex
Bandon Dunes #5 - That second shot is close to golf nirvana
Pacific Dunes #7 - Maybe one of the best holes I have ever played


Most Overrated

Pacific Dunes #10 - ZZZzzzz  Downhill shot to a flat green with a great backdrop of the ocean
Pacific Dunes #12 - Long, flat par 5...
Bandon Dunes #16 - Just try to drive it on the green, no?

[Charlie_Dusic]

[/quote]

Charlie - Are you saying that #8 was a let down in the stretch of #6-#9, or are you saying the stretch of #6-#9 was a let down.  Based on what you typed, I think the interpretation is that the entire stretch let you down, but I get the feeling you actually meant #8 was lost in that great stretch of holes.  I just can't imagine that whole stretch being a let down as I thnk #6 / #7 is almost as good as good as any back-to-back short par 4 & long par 4 combo in the country.  I do see that people could consider #8 a letdown.  It was to me my first time around, but on subsequent trips (more approach shots from different angles and different results)  I've come to love the 8th green complex.
__________________________

I guess I should clarify, I like No. 6 and No. 7 at Pacific Dunes however I completely lost my swing for a three hole stretch from No. 5 through my tee shot on No. 8, so I was so consumed with that problem that I did not study/take-in those two holes as I did the rest of the course.  No. 8 I like the green complex but can't think of anything else to say about the hole.  That doesn't mean I don't like the hole,  I was just picking the hole that I though was most overrated.

I did not get to play my second round on PD on my first trip, so really looking forward to my multiple rounds this time and will be interested to see if my perspective has changed.

[swv]

Overrated:

Pacific Dunes #4:  Sorry it just doesn't really do that much for me.  I would rather see that 450 yards of cliffside property used on more holes than just one.  My one complaint of Pac Dunes is that all the ocean holes run parallel to the ocean while Bandon Dunes uses it as a backdrop more (think #s 4 and 12).  If your going to have a straight hole run parallel to the ocean it should either be a shorter hole or completely spectacular like the 13th.


Underrated:

Bandon Trails #11:  Gets some heat on this site for the pond and how its doesn't fit in with the rest of the golf course.  I think it is a perfectly fine hole that doesn't clash with the flow of the course.  Fun drive leads to an interesting approach.  I like the pond and am glad Coore/Crenshaw decided to incorporate it

[Tim Pitner]

Some random thoughts:

Pacific Dunes #6-#9 might be my favorite stretch of holes at Bandon. 

Chip,

How can Pacific Dunes #12 be overrated?  I don't think anyone rated it that highly to begin with.  (I think it's a perfectly fine hole, just nothing special). 

I agree with those who say Bandon Trails #5 is overrated; it's not anywhere among my favorite holes on that course. 

Steve,

How about Pacific Dunes #10?  It's not parallel to the ocean.  I like Pacific Dunes #4 a lot.  It's very testing off the tee and the green and bunkering are very cool. 

[swv]

Steve,

How about Pacific Dunes #10?  It's not parallel to the ocean.  I like Pacific Dunes #4 a lot.  It's very testing off the tee and the green and bunkering are very cool. 

I've only played #10 from the lower tees where it runs pretty much parallel to the ocean.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tim,

I almost agree with you. I think that 6 and 7 seven are easily the best back to back holes I've ever seen, however 8 is lost on me. I've read the comparisons to #3 at Woking and I agree that the green is outstanding, but something was missing (to my left handed eye) from both the tee and approach areas. Perhaps I need another run through the eighth?

I've always wondered why #11 at BD doesn't receive more praise. It's the best example of strategic bunkering on the course imho.

The green is so difficult to hit and hold from the right side of the fairway, which make the fairway bunkering (angled from the left) the key to the hole. Throw in a NW wind and bogey is a great score.

[Will MacEwen]

Bandon - I think 4 is overrated, 15 is underrated.  Nothing wrong with 4, just not sure it merits the inclusion in GD top 500 or whatever.

I think 15 is a great par 3, and starts a tough run of three holes when you are trying to keep your round together.  Disaster lurks on each one, but you can also par through them if you are on.

[Jed Peters]

Bandon - I think 4 is overrated, 15 is underrated.  Nothing wrong with 4, just not sure it merits the inclusion in GD top 500 or whatever.

You shoulda seen it in 1999-2001.

The dune was WAY built up on the right corner, the long tee was open (445ish?) and the corner of the dogleg was the final resting place for a well struck drive.

If you didn't hit that (VERY) intimidating tee shot well, you couldn't see the green, and had about 210 into it, blind, and over a dune!

I can understand your discontent if you've played it recently in the last couple years, you can now spray the tee shot, find it, and may even be able to hack it onto the green...

[Eric Johnson]

You shoulda seen it in 1999-2001.

The dune was WAY built up on the right corner, the long tee was open (445ish?) and the corner of the dogleg was the final resting place for a well struck drive.

If you didn't hit that (VERY) intimidating tee shot well, you couldn't see the green, and had about 210 into it, blind, and over a dune!

I can understand your discontent if you've played it recently in the last couple years, you can now spray the tee shot, find it, and may even be able to hack it onto the green...

[/quote]

If the dune on the right WAS lowered, WHEN was it lowered?   

[Carl Rogers]

Tom has told me at the Bay of Dreams that PD no. 8 was his favorite hole.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,

I almost agree with you. I think that 6 and 7 seven are easily the best back to back holes I've ever seen, however 8 is lost on me. I've read the comparisons to #3 at Woking and I agree that the green is outstanding, but something was missing (to my left handed eye) from both the tee and approach areas. Perhaps I need another run through the eighth?

I've always wondered why #11 at BD doesn't receive more praise. It's the best example of strategic bunkering on the course imho.

The green is so difficult to hit and hold from the right side of the fairway, which make the fairway bunkering (angled from the left) the key to the hole. Throw in a NW wind and bogey is a great score.

Wyatt,

We hardly knew you (prior to your Baltimore Colts-like exit from Denver). 

Re: PD #8, the way the front bunker dominates the approach, plus the evil back bunker, plus the slope behind the green on the right, plus the overall look of the hole (it reminds me almost of a heathland or Australian-type course; maybe it's just the Woking thing) makes it a great hole for me.  And I like the way 6, 7 and 8 are sequenced--you have 6, which is a birdie hole but also has disaster potential, then you have 7 which is a very difficult par, and then you have 8, which seems pretty benign, but can bite you as well.  Then you have the drive on 9, which is very unique. 

I'm with you on BD #11--I think it's the best hole on the course (I do like #14 a lot too). 

[Patrick Glynn]

Pacific:

Underrated:
Definitely think the 3rd is just a great par 5. So much fun to play, great green - really tough pitch from 80 yards. Stands on its own merit, without the need for a water hazard/ocean views.
Totally agree that the 5th is a quality par 3 - love how the green has no definite shape & it all just blends together.
I actually REALLY like the 10th, its a very subtle green - not as "in your face" as say the 7th, there is a lot more going on there than first meets the eye. Thats a rare trait in a "Doak" green IMHO.
The centerline bunker on 15, along with the great green complex sans bunkers is just cool too.

Overrated:
Really dont get the 9th, everyone rates it quite high but I think the upper green is kinda... not too impressive I guess. Prefer the lower green by far.
Also dont really rate the 11th that high - "nice" hole but I actually think its the weakest par 3 on the course.

Bandon Dunes:

Underrated:
Solid par 5 3rd, quality elevated tee shot, interesting green, nice skyline in the background.
11 is a GREAT par 4, really quality hole. Plays a lot longer than the yardage, perfect bunkering & the green site is as good as anything Colt would have done IMHO

Overrated:
Dont really get the 6th - feel its a weak par 3 & the angles just dont do it for me.

Bandon Trails:

Underrated:
13 - cant say enough about this hole. I could practise chipping on the green for hours at a time.
17th is a great par 3. Elevated tee shot, really unique green. Perfect size target for the shot required, like the mini-false front too.

Overrated:
5th. Think the green is a bit overdone - and out of keeping with the rest of the course.

[Tim Bert]

Patrick - We share a few of our under-rated and over-rated picks, so we have a good deal of common thought on the courses.

One where I can't agree is PD #11.  I've heard others put this near the bottom of the list of the par 3s at PD as well, but I don't get it. 

Maybe its because I've been in just about every bunker around the hole and had a chance to play some really cool recovery shots.  Maybe its because the first summer I played I used a 9-iron and a 6-iron only five hours apart on the hole due to the change in wind.  Maybe it is because it is so late in the round that I'm oblivious to all bad things in my state of  glee.  It's certainly at least some of the eye-candy aspect, but I think there's so much more substance there than just the stunning visual.  I love it!

Paging Tom Huckaby!  Paging Tom Huckaby!  - I'd be interested to hear Tom's feelings on #11.  I'm sort of half-hoping he doesn't like it, so I can hear an explanation of what makes Pebble Beach #7 world-class, but Pacific Dunes #11 average.   

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

Be calm young man...#11 is indeed a top notch hole in my book.  Yes it has some "eye-candy" to it, but the hole plays very differently based on the wind and there is strategy to shoot a good score here.  Sure you can't miss left or short, but missing long or right will leave one with a tough up and down.  Its a great par 3 which is saying a lot because PDs par 3s are all very very good.

My biggest question is how long the bunkering on the ocean side of the hole will stay up there and not slide down on the beach. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Did I ever say anything negative ever about #11 PD?  I sure don't recall such.

I think it's a great hole.  It plays very different in the different winds, the surrounding bunkers are all death, missing that green somewhere other than the bunkers makes for an incredible recovery shot, and hell you have the ocean on your left which is always a good thing. 

I'm not sure why you constantly want to make comparisons to Pebble Beach - must be envy.   

TH

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

Did I ever say anything negative ever about #11 PD?  I sure don't recall such.

I think it's a great hole.  It plays very different in the different winds, the surrounding bunkers are all death, missing that green somewhere other than the bunkers makes for an incredible recovery shot, and hell you have the ocean on your left which is always a good thing. 

I'm not sure why you constantly want to make comparisons to Pebble Beach - must be envy.   

TH

Tom

No, you did not.  I suspected you might like the hole, but I wanted to get your thoughts.  I thought you could lend some credibility to my argument as one that favors Pebble since I'm clearly biased.

I've just heard a lot of people over time discount this hole as eye-candy and nothing special and I don't think that's the case.

Tom & Kalen - Thanks for coming to my rescue.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Happy to be of service.

Those who do not like the hole, well... I have to wonder what their standards are.  But to each his own....

TH

[Eric Johnson]

You shoulda seen it in 1999-2001.

The dune was WAY built up on the right corner, the long tee was open (445ish?) and the corner of the dogleg was the final resting place for a well struck drive.

If you didn't hit that (VERY) intimidating tee shot well, you couldn't see the green, and had about 210 into it, blind, and over a dune!

I can understand your discontent if you've played it recently in the last couple years, you can now spray the tee shot, find it, and may even be able to hack it onto the green...

If the dune on the right WAS lowered, WHEN was it lowered?   
[/quote]

Still awaiting a response......

[Jed Peters]

You shoulda seen it in 1999-2001.

The dune was WAY built up on the right corner, the long tee was open (445ish?) and the corner of the dogleg was the final resting place for a well struck drive.

If you didn't hit that (VERY) intimidating tee shot well, you couldn't see the green, and had about 210 into it, blind, and over a dune!

I can understand your discontent if you've played it recently in the last couple years, you can now spray the tee shot, find it, and may even be able to hack it onto the green...

If the dune on the right WAS lowered, WHEN was it lowered?   

Still awaiting a response......
[/quote]

Sorry, just got back online to see this post.

I would presume sometime between my 2001 trip and 2004 trip.

I took 3 years off in between there.

[Eric Johnson]

Sorry to inform that the dune on the right side of #4 was never lowered.  In February 2005, gorse was removed.  That about sums up the work done to #4 on the right side.

If you need clarification/confirmation of what has been done (and when), you are welcome to ask....... 

[Tim Pitner]

Does anyone have photos of Bandon Dunes #4 and/or #14 post-gorse removal?  It'd be great to separate fact from fiction with actual visuals. 

[Tom Jefferson]

Hey Tim;

Yes, that would be a good thing.........separating fact from fiction on this site!!!!!

Eric has a real accurate memory for Bandon Dunes......and is happy (well, mostly)
to provide information that is not opinion based.  In all things gorse at BD, he is the source.

Tom

[Joe Bentham]

Jed's been barking up this tree for a while.  And I think Eric has been happy to point out more then once that Bandon Dunes was gorse-less on opening day '99.
My question for Jed is why make golf harder for the guy its already hard for?  Removing gorse on the edges of a hole that is 80 yards wide doesn't affect good players.  4 is down wind 2/3 of the time so the challenge is not hitting it through the fairway, not getting it to the opening.  And you still can't see the green unless you knock it down past the corner.