Australia advice II

[tonyt]

No one has mentioned the Dunes (Cashmore) on the Mornington. Would this be a good substitute or additon? It had some wonderful holes.

Lovely course. Should be played by a Melbournian almost every year.

I wouldn't include it in a trip for somebody who may spend a week in Melbourne less than half a dozen times in their life.

[David_Elvins]

Pete Pittock,

The Dunes is a special place to play but maybe a little weak on quality architecture compared to some of the other courses listed ahead of it.  But it does have that special something. In my mind, 13th Beach is a far better example of Tony Cashmore's architectural talents and if you were going to see one of his works, that would be it.  One thing that no-one has mentioned is the impressive variety of architects on the courses listed -the courses listed include some of the better work of Mackenzie, Russell, Doak, Norman, Trent Jones Jr, Cashmore and Clayton.


If you didnt make the trip to 13th Beach, The Dunes would be a worthy addition ,definetly the next best course on the Peninsula along with the Legends course at Moonah Links, probably the best course to come out of Peter Thomson design firm.

[Philip Gawith]

I agree with David Elvins re the Legends Course at Moonah Links. It seems on this board to sometimes get lost amid the high level of antipathy towards the other course at Moonah Links. I really enjoyed the course - played on Christmas Day afternoon. I think it is a good course on a great site. I recall some really fun fairways spread over the dunes, such as the 1st.

[ed_getka]

Wow. Thanks guys, you are really giving me some great info.

Paul,
  Portsea is off the list now! Those elevated greens off downhill lie courses kill my low-trajectory game. Actually, I most likely will still want to take a look at it.

Guys,
Thanks again for all the invaluable advice, I hope I can reciprocate some day when you come to to our shores to visit.

[James Bennett]

Ed and others.  Pictures of Portsea.  From November 2005.  It has been a wet spring, so the colours are indicative of the maintence style/IMM practiced at Portsea.  And, yes,  the greens are on the smaller scale.

Michael Clayton Golf Design has done work here, removing one par 3 from a congested area and building a great replacement (#16) - I didn't pick it as a new hole when I saw it.  The other work is quite seamless, unless you know what was there before.  I believe Bruce Grant (one of the Directors at Clayton Golf Design) has rebuilt the bunkers over the last 10 years, but I am only aware of the one new green.  Some vegetation at shot points has been removed.  Their photo-opportunity works include the Portsea #6 par 5 and Portsea #13 short par 4 (about 250 metres, slightly uphill along a spur) where intervening vegetation was removed to reveal the current look.

Portsea #4 long par 4 (wish I had a photo of #5 - a most intruiging hole)


Portsea #6 par 5


Portsea #8 with Port Phillip Bay in the background (Bass Straight is just as close, on the other side of the course but not visible).


Portsea #13 (#17 is returning at the left of the photo - the lower bunkers are for that hole).


James B

[Chris Kane]

There are five courses on the Peninsula worth playing before The Dunes - National Old and Moonah, Moonah Legends, St Andrews Beach and Portsea.  IMO it ranks with Metropolitan as one of the most overrated courses in Australia.

I would also play the two courses at Peninsula CC before 13th Beach and Barwon Heads - going across on the ferry is a hassle, and while both courses are good, don't sacrifice a couple of sandbelt games for them.

[Paul_Daley]

James: thanks for posting those images of Portsea.

Ed: Great that you are playng Portsea; don't misconstrue my post as a competitive one between that course and Barwon Heads. They are both excellent and completely different.
Looks like you'll have to adopt Jeff Brauer's advice and book a one-way ticket to sample all these treats.

Sean: Your post re-confirms the beauty of GCA.  

[ed_getka]

James,
    Thanks for posting the pix, it was nice talking with you.
Paul,
     I am not necessarily choosing one over the other, and am actually inclined to play both, but once I get down to the business of planning the itinerary I'll just have to see how the travel logisitics pan out.

[James Bennett]

Ed

I have attached some photos of Barwon Heads, two from 25 years ago and one more recent.  The old photos are (again) from Tom Ramsey's 25 Great Australian Golf Courses (photos by Allen Fox) whilst the new are from Darius Oliver's Australia's Finest Golf Courses (photos by David Scaletti).

I have not been to Barwon Heads, but my father visited, and it has been a golf holiday destination for members at my club for many years, despite being 450 miles away and not next to a big city.  It was about 6230 yards par 70.  From what I understand, not a lot has changed at Barwon Heads over the years.  I know they are considering (?undertaking) some works with the assistance of Neil Crafter, but I would be surprised if the impact would be detrimental to its historical development or style of maintenance (but, I don't really know).

There are two photos of the famous #13 par 3 (after which the nearby beach was named, ie 13th beach, from which the nearby Tony Cashmore course took its name).  The two photos are 25 years apart, although with the exception of a new trolley path by the tee (perhaps more people are playing?), and improvement in photography, not much has changed.  Barwon Heads was originally developed in 1921 by Victor East (according to Darius Oliver - I don't know of this gentlemen).  The other photo is an old one of #6 hole, returning to the clubhouse.

Old photo of #6 Barwon Heads


Old photo of #13 [ar 3 at Barwon Heads


New photo of #13 par 3 at Barwon Heads


James B

PS - if you are planning a trip down under, get Darius Oliver's book.  It is a good start to show what you have to select from that is worthwhile.



Edit - if you have got this far, you should probably read Ran's write-up on Barwon Heads in the Courses by Country - similar storyline, better written and more photos.  I forgot that was there.

[Sean Walsh]

As Jams suggested I re-checked Ran's course profile and was suprised that the 4th wasn't highlighted.  

A very good two tier green and large swail front left.  Green is long and narrowish.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Played Pennisula Club (North) yesterday and, despite the dreadful conditioning, we thought it was quite a good course.  Portsea, Newcastle, SA Beach, National were OK too, all in the 5-6 range.

New South Wale was fabulous.  

Tom D - what in the world did you see in Commonwealth to rank it so highly??  We could not figure it out.  While a thoroughly pleasant parkland course there are many others equally good in the US/UK that are basically unheard of.

JC

[Andrew Summerell]

Tom D - what in the world did you see in Commonwealth to rank it so highly??  We could not figure it out.  While a thoroughly pleasant parkland course there are many others equally good in the US/UK that are basically unheard of.

I'm not Tom Doak, but personally, I always thought it was one of the best peices of routing I have ever seen.

[Bill_McBride]

For the Down Under trip planner - how far is it from Royal Melbourne to Kingston Heath?

[George Blunt]

Bill,

RM to KH is about 15 - 20 mins, or about 8 mins with Mike Clayton.

George

[peter_p]

Bill,
http://www.street-directory.com.au/aus_new/index.cgi

Click Victoria, then Melbourne, SE along coast. RM and KH both show up alt 4th level magnification.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Bill

Asked the pro - Greg - at Kingston Heath that very question this afternoon.  He said Royal Melbourne was 10 minutes away and just a couple turns.

BTW - KH is wonderful.

JC

[Chris Kane]

Tom D - what in the world did you see in Commonwealth to rank it so highly??  We could not figure it out.  While a thoroughly pleasant parkland course there are many others equally good in the US/UK that are basically unheard of.

Jonathan, I suspect the main thing which impressed Doak was the green complexes, which are as good as anything on the sandbelt save for RMW.  

If you've been reading this forum, you would know that the course Doak rated in the late 80's is not the same one as is there now - there were significant changes to a number of holes in the early 90's.  I never saw the course in its Doak 8 phase, but what is there now is IMO a 5/6.  If I went berserk with a chainsaw and mower, I think I could improve it significantly.

[Shane Gurnett]

Commonwealth was a significantly better golf course 15 years ago prior to the changes to holes 1 (new hole), 5 (greenside bunkering), 6 (fairway bunker LHS), 7 (new hole), 12 (new hole) 14 (fairway bunkering LHS). A number of other smaller, less offensive changes to bunkering over the past 5-10 years have also taken place.  As the guys have said, the routing and greens (especially contouring) are second only to RM in Melbourne. The remaining examples of tilted, single bunkered greens (2, 4, 16, 17) are world class.

Condition wise, the course now is 10 times better than it was 5 years ago.

Shane.

[ed_getka]

Who did the work on the new holes at Commonwealth?

I am now rereading Paul's Sandbelt book and have a few questions.
  Who redid the bunkering at Woodlands, and what do you guys think of it? Did any of you guys ever see teh "wire netting hurdles" at Woodlands, and more importantly do you have any pictures to share? I have never heard of such a thing.

Who did the revision of #10 Huntingdale that "deserves praise"
?

[ed_getka]

Paul Daley,
  I'm going to have to give you a hard time on this one. ;)Earlier in the thread you talk about RM not being so far ahead of the rest of the pack. However , you have a statement by Mike Clayton included in your book that goes on to say "Tiger Woods is now the finest player in the game, and by the same margin, RM is the leading example of classic golf architecture on the Sandbelt." Hmmm... I wouldn't think that the margin Mike refers to as small or narrow.
   Here I am trying to plan a trip and you are confusing me with conflicting data.
   

[Mike_Clayton]

Ed,

If Tiger is Royal Melbourne,Kngston Heath is Ernie Els.
For me there is a significant gap between both - but I love watching Ernie and I love playing KH.
The wire netting went from Woodlands so long ago no one can remember it!
Graeme Grant did the recently new bunkering at Woodlands.

Jonathon must have pretty high standards if St Andrews Beach is 5-6 (Doak certainly doesn't think so!) and the condition of Peninsula North is 'dreadful'


George,

My wife needs so encouragement from you in her campaign to mark me as Melbourne's worst driver.

[Jason Topp]

I am now rereading Paul's Sandbelt book and have a few questions.
  Who redid the bunkering at Woodlands, and what do you guys think of it? Did any of you guys ever see teh "wire netting hurdles" at Woodlands, and more importantly do you have any pictures to share? I have never heard of such a thing.

Ed - I thought the bunkering at Woodlands was outstanding.  It was very similar to Kingston Heath in appearance and I think there is a bit more sand in them (although I can only recall being in one).

Here are a couple of not pictures taken from the 17th tee showing the 16th green and the 17th.  The bunkers are more visually stunning on other holes:

[Chris Kane]

Ed, Kevin Hartley changed a number of holes in the early 90's, and Tony Cashmore redid some bunkers a couple of years ago.  

[Jason Topp]

Ed - here is a picture of the bunkering on the 3rd at Woodlands posted by someone else in an earlier thread:

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike,

Years ago Doak wrote me a note to say that he thought my standards were too low and that my judgement on compaing the quality and character of courses suspect at best!  Maybe as I approach 1000 courses seen the pendulum has swung the other way.

Dreadful was too strong a word for Peninsula.  Scruffy would have been a better description.  We found large bare spots in fairways, weeds growing in unkept bunkers and fairway variations from lie to lie.  This was not true of the greens which were quite good.  In fact, the green complexes were marvelous, especially on the inward half.  The routing of the back nine, playing with all angles, was particularly good.  The North may have been the biggest and most pleasant surprise of the trip.

ST Andrews Beach is a good course too, I just think we were expecting more.  Holes #2, #8 and the Redan-ish 16th were fine golf holes.  But we thought some of the green contours were over the top.  The left side of #4's green, for example, is so sloped that it is unapproachable from a center fairway position.  In some places SA Beach reminded me of the greens at Lost Dunes which, in places, are also overly severe.  The bunkering, as with most RGD courses, was brilliant at Beach.

Tom told me after the Ren Cup last year that the folks who continued on to Beach and Barnbougle from Kidnappers placed Kidnappers in third place of the RGD Down Under trio.  Well now having played Beach I'll stick with my 6 compared to the 8-9 I gave Kidnappers.  Maybe, like it did with the real St Andrews, my opinion would change with following rounds.

Shane - thanks for the info on Commonwealth.  I did not appreciate that the course was significantly changed, which explains the Doak rating.

JC