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Jordan Wall

Is Seeing Believing?
« on: March 02, 2006, 08:51:22 PM »
How often have you heard lots about a course, maybe even walked a course, one that could be even considered great, and been like, wow, it is nice but not great??

Now, how many times have you done that, walked or seen or talked about a great course, and then once you finally get a chance to play it you see all of its values, strategies, green contours, etc??  Once you finally play a great course, whether you have seen or walked it before, how much different does the course seem to you and how does it appeal differently to you??  What comes out of actually playing a course that is different then just walking or looking at it??
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 08:54:00 PM by Jordan Wall »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seeing is Believing
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 08:54:16 PM »
Interesting question.
The example that comes to my mind first is when I said to myself:

I can't believe this is 17 at Pebble :P


-Ted
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 08:54:34 PM by Ted Kramer »

Andy Troeger

Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 09:04:27 PM »
Despite having heard about it, I never could have imagined just how small the 18th green at Harbour Town really is, especially when you're standing out in the middle of the fairway. What a great hole!

On the other hand, after seeing the 18th at Whistling Straits on TV I didn't understand why others had criticized it, I thought it looked pretty neat. Once I played it from 500 yards and had no chance of hitting the green and almost no chance of laying up inside about 180 on the 2nd shot, I understood why!   ::)

TEPaul

Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2006, 09:15:12 PM »
"Once you finally play a great course, whether you have seen or walked it before, how much different does the course seem to you and how does it appeal differently to you??  What comes out of actually playing a course that is different then just walking or looking at it??"

Jordan:

The thing that truly makes playing a great course different to me than just walking it or looking at it is when the course is really firm and fast in a particular arrangement I call the "Ideal Maintenance Meld".

Until recently I'd never realized just how important particular maintenance practices are in making a good course come alive to one playing it versus just walking it or looking at it.

Jordan Wall

Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2006, 09:36:18 PM »
"Once you finally play a great course, whether you have seen or walked it before, how much different does the course seem to you and how does it appeal differently to you??  What comes out of actually playing a course that is different then just walking or looking at it??"

Jordan:

The thing that truly makes playing a great course different to me than just walking it or looking at it is when the course is really firm and fast in a particular arrangement I call the "Ideal Maintenance Meld".

Until recently I'd never realized just how important particular maintenance practices are in making a good course come alive to one playing it versus just walking it or looking at it.


For me that could be said about Kapalua Plantation.  It looks all green on TV and all nice--dont get me wrong it is--but what I really thought was cool was the fact the ball would roll forever.

Also, TV does not really show how beautiful the ocean looks when you are teeing off.  It also doesnt really show the 85-degree sunny weather there is compared to the sub thirties rain up in Seattle.  I absolutely loved actually playing The Plantation as opposed to watching it on TV.  For me, it was absolutley breathtaking...

...the 18th was also pretty cool...

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2006, 10:42:36 PM »
when I played Pebble for my first and only - and since the price is 425 now plus a not cheap hotel it's probably my last! - time Jordan I was AMAZED how small some of the greens were
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Glenn Spencer

Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2006, 10:58:12 PM »
I love this question. I think it is. I remember hearing and hearing about Wolf Run and I thought the first tee shot said it all. I knew that I was in for a difficult and challenging round. I had no idea what club to hit. I got to 13 after thinking about it all day and I just remember saying to myself, OK, this must be why.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2006, 04:18:12 AM »
I can remember playing Dornoch for the first time.  For sure this course comes with very heavy "I am one of the best courses in the world" baggage.  I was stunned.  When I saw the course for the first time I was thinking "Here we go again.  Loads of hype, but where is the action?"  After the 2nd things were looking better.  After the 3rd I was hooked.  I am still stunned by how brilliant Dornoch is.  I broke my no more than 18 a day rule with Dornoch.  Not for the usual reasons:some silly outing or competition, but because I wanted to.  Rare behaviour on my part never to be forgotten.  

Jordan, thanks for raising this thread. It has me smiling despite the fog and frost.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bryan Drennon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2006, 09:40:34 AM »
If you've never been to/played Augusta, the entire course is on the side of a hill. You can't even believe how uphill #18 is, especially if all you've ever seen is the hole during the masters tv coverage. It also looks like you could putt the ball about 300 yards down the hill on #10.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2006, 09:47:35 AM »
In an ideal world I'd walk each course before playing it.
In the reality that I live in, I almost never get that chance, however, I do think that one sees the course in a better light, if one is thinking design and strategy, when one is not trying to get the ball in the hole.
To follow the other take on the thread - Valderama, where I played in January is tight beyond belief, and many of the greens are tiny - Harbour Town tiny - which I didn't see from the TV coverage.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2006, 12:52:35 PM »
Lloyd:  Peter Jacobsen told me he always walked a new tournament venue once without his clubs before he played it.  He said he wanted to analyze the strategy, and also that he wanted his first impression of each hole to be a positive one, instead of having a negative impression of whichever holes he might hit a poor drive or get in trouble on.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is Seeing Believing?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2006, 01:06:10 PM »
First of all, I'd have to say the WORST way to try and assess a course for architectural and other greatness is to play it in competition.   Doing that your focus is to get the ball in the hole and that's it.  Oh, it would beat not seeing a course at all, but not by much.

That being said, I also have to believe one can play a casual round and see all he needs to see, if that's his mindset.  Just having clubs in hand does not shut off the eyes or the mind.

But getting back to Jordan's questions, well...

I would say MOST great courses that one sees on TV, or in pictures, or however, do only fully reveal themselves when actually walked or played.  It's just very difficult to get a sense of a place until you see it in person.

The tougher question here is which courses only fully reveal themselves after playing them?  That is, you walk them (either at a tournament or whatever), think you know them, but are surprised upon the actual playing?

This might actually be another sign of true greatness.

I am having a very hard time coming up with examples - because it's a small universe of courses that one would walk and not play (for me anyway).

I do think Pebble Beach fits.  Walking it, especially during AT&T, you don't get close enough to see the greens... and even if you do, it's not until you play that you notice the subtle, maddening contours... Also you can look at some of those majestic shots to be faced all you want, but only playing them do they really strike your heart, so to speak.

GREAT questions.

TH