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TEPaul

How honest can we be?
« on: November 13, 2002, 06:01:26 PM »
As Golfclubatlas moves along in time and maturity there are many things we sometimes become aware of at various clubs, courses and situations.

How honest and open can or should we be about some of these things we sometime run across?

I love the open and free discussion on here but sometimes any of us have to use judiciousness and consider the privacy of others, in my opinion.

And sometimes if we don't excercise this kind of judiciousness we could even do some damage to Golfclubatlas, in my opinion. Maybe we already have.

What do others think about this and what should we do about it in the future?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2002, 06:11:29 PM »
Tom:
Its a good question especially if you belong to a private club or are involved as a panelist with one of the magazines.  I have found that if you are patient, whatever subject you want to discuss will come around.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2002, 07:08:11 PM »
I too enjoy the frank commentary here at GolfClubAtlas.com, Tom. Like you, I've been hanging around "shooting my mouth off" from the beginning! And I've made some good friends and acquaintances through the website.  

But I can attest, as someone in the business of golf course design and construction, I'm much more hesitant to post than I was three years ago. I've been confronted about  perceived "controversial" posts on a few occasions, and those experiences have proved to me words can be dangerously misinterpreted over the WWW.

While I continue to try to participate in the disucssion group as much as I can, I will admit that I've held back my opinions on many subjects following the aforementioned confrontations.

I know a bunch of golf architects are looking in but not posting. But I understand their unwillingness to comment, based on a few of my own past experiences.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2002, 07:32:34 PM »
TEPaul:

There are many people who will say they want to hear the truth about this and that. Golf is no different because so many of us have such passion for the game. I come to GCA to hear that passion -- one way or the other.

Think of it like the movie "A Few Good Men" when during the climatic scene Tom Cruise is grilling Jack Nicholson and he demands to know the "truth." Jack's comeback is a classic --"you can't handle the truth!"

I believe so long as people can argue their points with specific examples and avoid any personal remarks / putdowns about each other than so be it. I learn from people who have something to offer. If people put forward comments and can back them up with solid logic, analysis or specific personal observations then I say fine. When people start pulling their remarks because of some ill-defined political correct sensibilities or the impractical and diffuclt benchmark of "not wanting to offend" then I'm afraid one of the chief strenghts of GCA will have been considerably lessened.

Anytime you talk about courses there will always be those individuals (usually it's someone who is a member of the club in question) who takes offense if comments are not always glowing about their respective club.

I've found over the years you have a better time making a remark about a man's wife than talk ill about his course. At the end of the day we are big boys and if certain people can't handle the heat stay out of the kitchen. I'm not suggesting by any means good manners go out the window, however. when you lose robust back-and-forth dialogue and meaningful frank discussion you lose the essence of what makes this site so appealing and informative.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2002, 07:48:14 PM »
Matt Ward:

I looked at my original post again and I guess I didn't make myself very clear.

I'm not really talking about anyone's 'honest' opinion of a golf course or a hole etc, I'm talking more about mentioning things on this site that particular clubs and courses and the members of them might consider private issues of those clubs and their own private business--things they would not want to go out on the Internet all over the world.

I'm talking about how far any of us should go in discussing things on here of that kind.

Obviously using the word "honest" probably wasn't the right word for what I was trying to say. Maybe "open" would be a better word.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2002, 08:09:59 PM »
Tom Paul:

I think it is very hard, maybe nearly impossible, for people associated with a particular venue to be open and honest. The potential for criticism from associates, e.g., fellow members, investors or employees, is just too high. I've even experienced golf industry friends asking me not to comment about certain situations just because of how upset people associated with the course would become.

So does open criticism hurt Golfclubatlas?

I would have to say no. Almost every other major golf medium has been inficted with political correctness. Just as Tom Doak's Confidential Guide was intended to be a place where one could find negative as well as positive opinions, Golfclubatlas should play this role in the cyberspace world.

Tom's logic made a great deal of sense. The golf world is filled with marketing oriented materials. Shouldn't there be an alternative?

"Tasting" what the world of golf architecture has to offer takes time and money. Consumers should have other sources for information besides those who are paid to promote golf courses.

But, that doesn't mean one can always be equally candid. Earlier this year a friend arranged for me to visit a well known, former US Open site where some very controversial work had been done. He did so with the understanding that I not say anything on Golfclubatlas. Fine. I accepted his terms and have honored his request.

By contrast, I visited Greg Norman's Doonbeg project four times without any "arrangements" being made. Thus, I felt totally free to express my criticism of what I saw.

I went on golf adventures to study golf architecture long before GCA, so I don't feel a need to comment on everything I see. However, the more people feel free to comment, the more we all gain.

Our big problem in the past was too many personal attacks. Today, I think we have too many general statements without sufficient supporting documentation.

We should just continue to work on those issues and not worry so much about what people think. If you are really worried, just don't say anything. But, I will always hope others won't feel as constrained.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2002, 08:11:18 PM »
Tom Paul:

I see your clarification. Yes, certain things are private. I agree one hundred percent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2002, 08:21:00 PM »
Tom Paul;

I certainly understand what you're saying and think that all of us should use discretion here in discussing anything that might be deemed "private" information about any club or course.  I think each of us have to make those determinations for ourselves in what we're willing to share here, or deem unsuitable for public airing.

However, I believe the issue is bigger than that.

Just recently I learned that a member of this site was "unwelcome" in the future at a certain course, simply because that person made some "honest" and critical remarks here about certain holes on the course.  Overall, that person's comments were relatively tame and well-reasoned and the great majority of what he said about the course was really positive, but because he was willing to share some critical comments in public here, the powers that be evidently decided they'd heard enough from him.

Of course, any course or club has that right, as well.  Some of them are concerned that negative comments here might reflect negatively on their business, and they have a valid point, to some degree.

Still, I have to think that the opposite happens most times when courses are discussed here.  It's like the old entertainment industry motto that the worst thing is for no one to be talking about you...good or bad.  

However, for a variety of reasons, some personal and some just out of better understanding of the possible effects of a few choice, negative words, I've found myself trying to "think twice" and often tone it way, way down before posting anything that is negative in tone here than I would have two years ago.

Frankly, I'm not sure that's such a good thing.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2002, 08:37:26 PM »
Tom;

One other thing...

You asked "can we hurt Golfclubatlas" by being forthcoming here?

That reminds me of some discussion that took place a few years back that speculated that our critical, sometimes harsh tone in discussing holes, courses, architects, redesign work, etc., would ultimately damage our collective credibility.

That could be, but I'm starting to wonder if the opposite isn't true, as well.

In fact, I'm starting to think that we risk becoming some milquetoast, namby-pamby, politically correct version of what we used to be, where we spend more time being contentious with each other in personal "debate wars" than we do engaging in seriously honest, critical discussion of golf courses, architects, and design trends.  

We might not make any enemies in the industry (not that I think we should purposefully do that), but we risk something much worse in my mind...

...we risk becoming boring...and ultimately completely irrelevant.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2002, 08:38:46 PM »
I feel it is important to respect the confidenciality when at issue, but 99% of our discussions are subjective and really should not create problems.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

guest

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2002, 08:39:57 PM »
Mike C, I suspect unwelcome as a rater and/or without a member to play with, welcomed like any other quest with a member, but then again I suspect it is a private course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2002, 08:51:59 PM »
Guest;

I know of no such distinction.  "Unwelcome" was the word I heard.  The person is also not a rater with any of the major golf publications.  

The point is that the person's honest, critical remarks about the golf course here on GCA, which were truly of a quite positive nature overall, ultimately generated such a strong reaction.

Both parties are within their rights, certainly.  But, when we talk about "honest" and open discussion here, there is certainly a larger world we are operating within.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2002, 08:58:13 PM »
Tom, Its all relative to what you have to lose.

Some of us have subject matter that is best avoided. If I talk frankly about frustrating clients, I could lose them. If I gave you my honest opinion of a certain member of the press, I would probably face his revenge for the remainder of my career. If I'm too critical of other architects I will come off as jealous.

One little issue too, this group has very little ability to listen to an unpopular view without decending on it with vehemence. So why be a contrarian when your going to get trashed?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2002, 09:12:42 PM »
TEPaul:

My school motto was " Mannners makyth man." I do believe that any constructive  criticism
done with that in mind is acceptable to the most sensitive soul.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2002, 09:27:28 PM »
Oh, I have written some of the most brutal critiques ever on this site.  I have the good sense to follow Abe Lincoln's advice, and never send the message!  Sure feels good though!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Weiman

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2002, 09:32:18 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

I'm wondering about your views as someone who makes a living building golf courses.

What would make GCA better? Can you find enough "criticism" here" Or should people outside of the industry with nothing to lose be more outspoken?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2002, 09:45:10 PM »
Tim,

I always feel a bit queasy posting here, mainly for reasons Ian mentions.  Also, the all time best marketeers in golf design always left some mystery.  I usually give straight ahead rock and roll answers, or humorous ones, when asked a question.  That is my personality, but I wonder if a potential client looks at that and says I don't take architecture seriously enough, which I do.

I don't know what would make the site better, but I know what I enjoy - AOTD, and philosophical/analytical threads, like the current 4 strategic options thread, an old one analyzing the Leven Hole, some of Tommy's bunker threads, etc.  I benefit from the course profiles, and being exposed to things I haven't seen

Of course, my least favorites are the Rees, Tom and ASGCA bashing threads.  Knowing these gentlemen, and playing some of their work, I get the impression that the critiquing (which I agree architects should not be above) that it is really because of their celebrity and not their architecture.  I, as always, could be wrong, but really, what's the point?

For the record, I love all the press as long as they get my name right!  but jeez, Keffrey ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2002, 10:24:13 PM »
Tom

Really ineresting topic.  My rules:

1.  respect confidences
2.  be honest
3.  use your common sense
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_F

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2002, 01:15:23 AM »
If there are certain clubs that have stopped people from playing purely because of the odd negative comment, then that really is a sad state of affairs.
It would be nice to say that it's no great loss playing at such a club, but undoubtably there are a bunch of great guys there you would relish spending 2/3/4/5/6 hours playing golf.  it's just the one or two twats spoiling it for everyone, as usual.  Probably the same types that give their sixteen year old daughters a boob job for a birthday present.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2002, 04:39:28 AM »
I sort of hesitated posting a thread like this but now I'm glad I did. There were some wonderful and inciteful responses last night--really honest and useful--Tim Weiman, MikeC, Jeff Brauer, Rich Goodale and I particularly liked Ian Andrew's (talk about realistic).

Of course, ultimately, I'd like to see Golfclubaltas become as helpful and useful a resource as possible but I suppose that always has to be tempered with privacy concerns at any course or golf club, and unfortunately those at some golf clubs who really get concerned can sort of stop everything dead in its tracks (if you know what I mean). In that way this whole issue is sometimes a little like the old Marine Corps cliche that you can only go as fast as your slowest man!

There have been some topics on here in the past that did get adverserial as hell with a club or two and the fascinating thing to me is one of the biggest targets of all has risen above it all (always did actually) and has never appeared to hold any grudges. I find that amazing and also admirable (if I was him I doubt I could have done the same!).

Putting honest and open dialogue in the context of accesibility (to play the course that is) is always going to be a bit of a tricky business, in my opinion, and I don't believe any of us should place what we say in that particular context alone!

But now that I'm on this subject why not let it all hang out?

Ultimately, I really do think a site like this can be a win/win situation for contributors and clubs (at least it can be with the best of both). There seems to come a point where respect can be gained and if it is good things can and seem to happen (or are starting too). This is when it starts to translate down to real communication (maybe not on here though) and even into architectural desisions and actions.

Maybe, I shouldn't mention them but I'm going to anyway. Two people, particularly, who continue to post their opinions openly and honestly on here, I'm seeing beginning to cross that line into what I see as ultimately some really positive arrangements and relationships. Tom Doak and Geoff Shackelford.

Doak, obviously because he's in the business, and his really good recent work is getting the attention it deserves but I think too because in a smaller way his opinions on here are unusually honest and open and he expresses them regardless of what some out there might think. That's great and it looks like some of those who may have resisted him for it are those that seek him out now.

Same with Geoff Shackelford. A guy with unusually strong opinions but ones he can back up and explain clearly and cogently that ultimately appear to get the attention, and yes respect, of those that seem to be getting hit hardest. Those that one would think are the least likely to want to deal with him are apparently seeking him out now.

And I did see that last year at a large forum in Atlantic City with numerous superintendents in attendence. His presentation (with slides) was extremely good and commonsensical but occasionally very hard hitting (but with a good and calm tone) and in the end anyone could see he'd totally gotten the respect and attention of some real heavy weight superintendents in the audience. It was great to see.

That's the line I would like to see this whole site cross over into some day.

But unfortunately, as much as in anything, in golf architecture, it's very true, that a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing! It's not rocket science, but when you include architeictural concept and it's application, construction, agronomics, restoration and preservation issues and maintenance too it's a large and sometimes complicated  jigsaw puzzle and putting its complex pieces together can be tricky business many times.

And so all of us should always remember the best adage of all;

"Always know what you don't know".

And, Oh yes, that one other good one:

"Golf and its architecture is a great big game and there really is room in it for everyone."

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2002, 07:06:45 AM »
Jeff Brauer:

Thanks for responding. I have no interest in criticizing any architect for their celbrity status. Jack Nicklaus was my favorite golfer and I'll always appreciate him for the wonderful memories, e.g., Turnberry 1977, Baltusrol 1980, Augusta 1986, etc. Rees Jones actually has a place in my heart because his dad built my favorite place in the world (Ballybunion's Cashen which most people hate!). Finally, Tom Fazio built the course where I'm a member (Sand Ridge).

So, criticize them just for being celebrities? I have no such motivation.

What does raise my concern are things which increase the cost of playing the game. I'd say Jack and Tom have had some role in that. I also think the large scope of their operations means details don't get the same attention as some smaller firms.

The bottom line is that the only reason I offer criticism is to encourage more pleasure for more people playing golf. That's why I think we tend to worry way to much about a small elite of the very best players when creating more fun for the man who can't break 90 makes more sense.

One of the people who taught me that was the former mayor of Dublin, Ireland ("City Manager", I think they call it). Back in the 1980's we played together several times. This gentleman was a masterful politician, but really had very little skill on the golf course. Indeed, advancing the ball 150 yards was a blow of mighty proportions.

But, he absolutely loved the game. He was inspiring just to play with even if you couldn't look forward to a wonderfully entertaining dinner afterward (which one always could!).

I don't think less of any architect for participating on GCA. Just the reverse is true. I admire those who are willing to have their views open to review, questions, criticism, etc.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2002, 07:35:22 AM »
Having grown up in the trading pits of Chicago, I can HONESTLY say that information is a scarce resource. That being said, I believe strongly that if there is an issue of credibilty, or lack thereof, it is imperative to share that information with the community.

Other issues, information or opinion, that have little or no effect on the populous, should be held confident at the owner's discretion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2002, 08:13:12 PM »
TEPaul,

When an individual posts under their own name they place themselves "AT RISK", and when they add candor, they expose themselves to additional "RISK".

There is a "value added", the quality of "character" that accompanies authored posts.

A while ago I posted on a subject, but was careful not to reference the club by name or any identifying feature such as its location or the name of the architect involved.

Several posters made attempts to guess the name of the club and were incorrect.  Other posters requested the name of the club, which I refused to do.

Yet, the architect who lurked/logged onto the site, obviously recognized my name, put two and two together to figure out the club I was referencing, and wrote a critical letter to the club with respect to my posting on GCA, and alleged that they were resigning as the consulting architect because of the posting, DESPITE the fact that I never divulged any information that could identify the club or the architect.  
The club then "called my onto the carpet" to discuss my posting on GCA.

My posting was HONEST.  
No facts were obscured, no misrepresetations were made,
and I deliberately avoided identifying any of the parties involved, but the perception of the spotlight of scrutiny, touched a few nerves.

What did Jack say in "A Few Good Men" ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2002, 07:01:49 AM »
Pat- Now that sounds like a total lack of credibility on the archies part. If he did resign and they busted your chops, I would definetly re-post that topic including all the specifics. Life's too short to have to deal with unprofessional professionals. And it is this loose cannons opinion that if an archie can't handle the little bit of constructive criticism you offered, while protecting his anonimity, Then they have no business accepting a fee for thier design and it is your duty to inform all future principles who this joker is and to avoid him in all capacities. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: How honest can we be?
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2002, 08:09:29 AM »
Pat:

On second thought maybe you should rethink that quote by Jack (Nickolson) in "A Few Good Men" when he yelled in the courtroom "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

A strong and principled thing to say in the minds of some, perhaps, but the fact is moments after yelling that remark Jack was handcuffed and led away to the BRIG!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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