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Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« on: February 28, 2006, 07:55:43 AM »
    Anyone hear about this? It was just on the local news station.

The current Mayor of North Hills (Natikis?) appears intent on taking over the very exclusive and ultra private Deepdale Golf Club to create a golf course for public use.

Deepdale has some of the most Augusta-like greens with respect to speed and contour..

Of course, the hole in the armour is the local property tax for each individual hoeowner would go up thousands per year, an area which has prop taxes which are among the highest in the nation.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Andy Scanlon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 07:57:55 AM »
Won't Mr. Zahringer have something to say about this?
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 08:04:03 AM »
Come on Dr. A politician takes on 200 members, most of whom do not live in his district so that he looks good to his voters for "taking on the man."

It is a political fight, not a legal one because he will lose the later.

Ian Andrew

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 08:04:13 AM »
I know someone very well at Deepdale, we discussed this last time when it came up. He laughed at the suggestion.

I wouldn't lose any sleep waiting for this to happen.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 08:20:09 AM »
No doubt, he has a very formidable and powerful group to fight.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 09:50:57 AM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 08:33:01 AM »
A Google search has revealed this from The Manhasset Press

www.antonnews.com/manhassetpress/2006/01/27/news/


What Happened in Manhasset's Villages in 2005?

Village of North Hills: Review 2005


4. The board of trustees has authorized the village attorney to retain a firm to appraise the value of the Deepdale Golf Course property. The village attorney has also retained an environmental consultant with the approval of the board of trustees. Both of these steps are preliminary and necessary for the intended eminent domain proceeding to acquire Deepdale as a village golf course.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 08:43:02 AM »
Both of these steps are preliminary and necessary for the intended eminent domain proceeding to acquire Deepdale as a village golf course.

Steve,

Let's for argument sake say he is successful in getting that ruling. Now he still has to pay for it. 200 or so acres on the access road of the Long Island Expressway is a BIG BIG number. I probably know 10 families in Manhassett, none of them play golf to my knowledge, so why do they want tax dollars going to pay for it?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 08:55:33 AM »
Mike

The Village elected this Mayor. He must have some political support to propose a very expensive undertaking such as this. Perhaps there should be a taxpayer revolt leading to a recall or impeachment once the numbers are ascertained or maybe the Mayor will drop his idea.
This is not an eminent domain case similar to the recent US Supreme Court case where private property was condemned for private redevolpment in order to increase the tax base. Here, this is a case of private property being condemned for the "public good." I think this is still a permissible use of eminent domain. The law firms will benefit greatly in this case. ;D

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 09:03:12 AM »
I remember this issue coming up on here in the last few years. I don't remember the details involved though. For some reason I thought the land of Deepdale G.C. was leased from someone (but that may've just been the last Deepdale course on the other side of the LI Expressway that was leased land). If that's true the leasor would be the one to look at in this case. If Deepdale owns their land, though, then this looks like a straight eminent domain proceeding.

The US Supreme Court ruling in the Connecticutt case on eminent domain a year or so ago surely does not help Deepdale G.C's cause in an eminent domain proceeding by the town against the golf club but with a membership as potentially powerful as Deepdale's is this particular eminent domain proceeding could be taken all the way into the US Supreme Court if the Supreme Court would take the case.

Frankly, if that were to occur the US Supreme Court may just take a case like this as the Connecticutt decision has apparently caused all kinds of ridiculous eminent domain situations, not the least one being a frightening case by the town of Fort Lauderdale (Florida) against a series of landowners.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 09:04:24 AM by TEPaul »

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2006, 09:16:47 AM »


Why do they have to condemn the land or even use eminent domain? Can't they tax them out of business?

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2006, 10:12:53 AM »
Hoard your guns in your basement and be ready to defend your homes.

Just another sign that personal property here in the good ole US of A is not sacrosanct and that any wealth you accumulate will be redistributed to the masses in due time.


Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 10:49:17 AM »
It might sound odd, but I almost hope this happens. When cities use eminent domain to take property from the middle class, there doesn't seem to be much of an outcry. I would have to think that if a few cities tried to take some prestigious private clubs, the powerful and influential might start to see how unjust the Connecticut ruling is. Propose bulldozing Augusta and using the property for strip malls and condos and we can start betting on the over/under on how many days before it makes its way to the Supreme Court.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:49:35 AM by Dan_Callahan »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2006, 11:18:30 AM »
The recent Supreme Court case has nothing to do with Deepdale. You can define"public use" in many ways. Taking a private golf club for public use as a golf course or a recreation facility or a road is still doable UNLESS, in light of the recent Supreme Court case, the State or local government's RIGHT to use the power of eminent domain is legislatively restricted. Talk to your legislators about this. Just don't complain about it.

    In law, eminent domain is the power of the state to appropriate private property for its own use without the owner's consent. Governments most commonly use the power of eminent domain when the acquisition of real property is necessary for the completion of a public project such as a road, and the owner of the required property is unwilling to negotiate a price for its sale.

Property rights purists contend that the words eminent domain appear nowhere in the U.S. Constitution. However, eminent domain law is based on the Fifth Amendment: [no person shall] be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; NOR SHALL PRIVATE PROPERTY BE TAKEN FOR PUBLIC USE WITHOUT JUST COMPENSATION.

Early uses of eminent domain were primarily for public works — large-scale projects such as the utilities of the Tennessee Valley Authority or the grand highway schemes of the years after World War II. In 1954, the Supreme Court ruled in Berman v Parker that private projects meet the definition if they have a "public purpose". Under this rationale, the court approved a slum-clearance plan of the government of Washington, DC. In the latter half of the 20th century the process was used to clear "blighted" areas of American cities for redevelopment — with projects such as the Baltimore waterfront standing as successful eminent domain stories.

Eminent domain cases, like Kelo v. New London, recently decided by the Supreme Court, has centered about the definition of "public use." In recent years "public good" has been expanded to include private economic developments which use eminent domain seizures to enable commercial development for the purpose of generating more tax revenue for the local government.

Although many court-watchers expected the decision against the homeowners in Kelo v. New London, a recent case bucks that trend. In 1981, the Supreme Court of Michigan permitted eminent domain powers to be exercised in the neighborhood of Poletown in order to build a General Motors plant. Over 1000 homes and 600 businesses were razed for the plant. Courts in other states relied on this decision in framing their own eminent domain cases.

As General Motors' fortunes fluctuated over the decades the promised urban regeneration didn't materialize. In 2004, the Pacific Legal Foundation and the Michigan branch of the ACLU asked the Michigan Supreme Court to "restore the constitutional protections which ensure that private property cannot be taken to benefit powerful interest groups at the expense of the less powerful." The Supreme Court voted unanimously to overturn the Poletown eminent domain ruling — over 20 years after the neighborhood was razed.

The media and court observers are heralding Kelo v. New London as powerful reaffirmation of the use of eminent domain for private development. A recent study by the property rights group Institute for Justice, which is representing the New London homeowners in court, found about 10,000 cases from 1998 to 2002 of local governments in 41 states using or threatening to use eminent domain to transfer home and properties from one private owner to another. Courts in at least six states have upheld the practice. And yet, according to THE EONOMIST, "while a dozen states frequently use eminent domain for economic development, a dozen specifically ban or discourage it."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

grandwazo

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2006, 11:31:12 AM »
I seem to remember either a WSJ or NYT's article on this...the Allen family from Allen & Company has over the years bought a majority of the shares in this club and effectively controls it.  At one point in time the club was having financial difficulties and shares were sold to reinforce the balance sheet.  Since then members of the family have bought shares back from members as well as employees who put up money to save the club.  

If I remember correctly the offer to sell the club came from the club itself as a way to maximize the value and this is not really a case of the community looking to claim eminient domain over a club that was once rated in the top 100 in the US.  

Shelter Rock Road, which is the heart of North Hills includes many high end condo communities including Gracewood and my assumption is that many of the residents are currently members of clubs such as Glen Oaks, Fresh Meadows, etc.  and the average price of a condo (not a house) exceeds $1million on this road.  

Should the town accept the club's offer to sell, there is no doubt that the residents of North Hills would jump at the opportunity to have Deepdale as community property.

The question really is how much and whether or not the town can afford the price.  If it can, you can be sure that this "amenity" will add another $200K to prices of both homes and condos in this town adding to the tax coffers of the town, and possibly paying for itself over the short term and generating profits in the long term.
 


Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2006, 11:35:53 AM »
I worked next door at North Hills CC for two years and heard rumors of this a couple years ago.  It would take a miracle to shut down Deepdale or take it over for that matter.  I wouldn't lose sleep over this, Deepdale is here to stay, IMO.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2006, 01:13:03 PM »
This could end up in the Supreme Court.  If it was allowed, Clementon could take over Pine Valley, Augusta could take over ANGC, etc.

rgkeller

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2006, 01:47:10 PM »
The land of Deepdale GC is owned by a partnership. The majority is owned by the Allen family of Allen & Company, investment bankers.

There is litagation is progress among the partners.

The members have nothing to say about whether the Village takes the property - unless they are asked to kick in some bucks for legal fees.

This has been going on for years. A previous major of North Hills was about to act when he died during a gastric bypass operation.

The land is zoned residential and has been downzoned several times - I think now something like one home per five acres. So the appraised value may be less than one might think.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2006, 01:47:28 PM »
The Indians have more chance of getting Shinnecock and National.

james soper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2006, 01:57:46 PM »
does sebonack have similar concerns?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2006, 05:39:04 PM »



Tell me that this is a big hoax, the War of the Worlds revisited.

It doesn't appear that Deepdale has an interest in developing the property or that the city intends to redevelop  or condemn it for economic incentives. Is this strictly a have nots vs. haves issue.

I'd be appreciative if someone continued to illuminate me on the issues inherent to this attempted taking.

Muchas gracias!

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2006, 05:42:44 PM »
In the town of North Hills it isn't a story of haves vs. have-nots.  It's a story of the haves vs. the have mores.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2006, 07:11:41 PM »
Gene Greco,

While this issue came up in earlier years, it was before the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Eminent Domain where private interests were involved in a pseudo partnership with municipalities.

Eminent Domain may be a very real and very onerous threat to golf courses in urban and suburban areas.

What developer wouldn't want to convert 200 + acres to homesites cleared land ?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2006, 07:16:33 PM »
What developer wouldn't want to convert 200 + acres to homesites cleared land ?

And, more frightengly, what politician wouldn't want the tax dollars?

I hope the new Court reviews the Helo decision.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2006, 07:43:42 PM »
George

While the Supremes may review the Kelo decision if another case wends its way upwards, the best course of action is, as I indicated, to lobby your legislators at the state and local level to enact legislation to restrict the use of eminent domain. The Supremes said that the power to use eminent domain can be restricted by legislation.There was no such restriction in Kelo.

"... according to THE EONOMIST, "while a dozen states frequently use eminent domain for economic development, a dozen specifically ban or discourage it."
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 09:52:17 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale to be Condemned!!!????
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2006, 08:55:12 PM »
What developer wouldn't want to convert 200 + acres to homesites cleared land ?

And, more frightengly, what politician wouldn't want the tax dollars?

I hope the new Court reviews the Helo decision.


George & Steve,

   It's the KELO case, not the "HELO." More importantly, Ke;o also had only partly ancillary arguments that reflected the town's desire to reshape it's local economy and downtown areas. WHile that may not have been what remained solely responsible for the Supreme's decision, it more than likely played a considerable role.

   AS for North Hills, they will have a far greater struggle to achieve any real eminent domain action against DGC. NYS laws and the price that might be born by the community, not to say the least of the political sway that several DGC members still possess. will all conspire to make this a very, very difficult process. More than likely, and long before a RIMM v. NTP-like showdown. some extortion/settlement will take place and vast sums of $$ will transfer both discreetly and not-so-discretely. My $$ is on DGC to ultimately prevail. That said, I do see a great deal of other possible courses that might one day fall to the condemnation hammer. In fact, given the state of many otherwise deed-restricted properties and the present market for development, I'd be shocked if the next few years didn't bring some higher profile cases.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith