Architecture's ultimate symbiotic relationship ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas & TH,

Ignorance is no excuse under the law.

Seminole is enhanced by the wind.
It's a far better golf course with wind then without the wind.

Shivas,

I've played golf with you and I know the impact that a 4-5 club length wind would have on your game.

And, FUN isn't one of the words or images that comes to mind.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

You miss the point.  ALL of these courses are enhanced by the wind - read shivas' very pithy quote again.

Our point is that each STARTS as great (that is, without wind) and just gets BETTER with reasonable wind.  Thus wind is not REQUIRED for its greatness.

But as I say, it depends on what one calls "great."  Since you haven't played Santa Teresa, you are lacking the fundamental baseline.  And ignorance is no excuse.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

The better the architecture, the less wind it takes...

Tom Huckaby,

Perhaps you should read what Shivas posts before telling me what you think Shivas said.   [/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

The better the architecture, the less wind it takes...

I think the folks at Seminole and NGLA would disagree with that statement, as would I.

Well, they can disagree with whatever they want, but you just said above that NGLA becomes borderline unplayable in a 4-5 club wind.  The average muni does not

Baloney, almost every course becomes unplayable in a 4-5 club length wind.

And, if a golf course has narrower fairways than GCGC or NGLA it will become unplayable sooner.
____________________

Pat, you're too quick to discount other possibilities.  What if a course is so narrow and has so few trees that the wind brings other fairways into play?  That than make a course very playable and a lot of fun.  

Provided they hand out helmets and flak jackets on the first tee and have you sign a waiver of liability.  

What if the course is a pushover without a giant wind and it takes 4-5 clubs to make it challenging?  

Few golfers have the ability to handle a 4-5 club length wind.
And I'm realistic enough to know that I'm one of them, and so are you.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

How do you know that I don't swing differently in a 4-5 club wind?

EVERYONE swings differently in a 4-5 club length wind.[/color]

What is the factual basis for your conclusions as to how I swing in a 4-5 club wind?  


# 1   Your swing with NO wind
# 2    A 4-5 club length wind.[/color]

[Doug Siebert]

But there is a point where any course -- no matter how great -- is actually less fun to play due to wind.  

I believe that's what Patrick was getting at - when balls go from stationary to rolling around on and off a green just due to wind, that's the time to stay in the bar.

Actually I think even that kind of a day can be a lot of fun, if you have the right mindset.  When I played Ballybunion in the summer of 2004, it was extremely windy there, and some really crazy stuff happened on the 7th green, the most exposed there.  It took me three shots to get onto the green from 10 feet away from it despite the first two of those shots being near perfect, a total of five to get down and a score for the hole of 8.

One of my playing partners was in the same place that I played my 6th shot from, the little hollow to the left, with the pin left center.  He hit his putt about 10 feet left of the hole and strong enough that it had already gone by when a extra stout gust nearly knocked us all over and caused his ball to turn around about 120 degrees and go right into the hole!

Wind is another ingredient that makes great golf courses even greater, just like firm & fast conditions.  The most fun I've had playing in Scotland and Ireland has been on the truly insanely windy days, days when it is far windier than it ever gets here in Iowa (absent thunderstorms when golf can't be played)  When we get one or two days a season with winds exceeding 35 mph I'll make a point of going out and playing if I can, just because its fun and a whole different type of challenge, even if that wind falls well short of what I've experienced at places like Prestwick, Lahinch, and Ballybunion.

I don't understand what Patrick Mucci is talking about when he says a course becomes "unplayable in a 4 to 5 club wind".  Maybe unplayable from the sense of someone stuck on a mindset of shooting a certain number, but golf can certainly be played, even if there are some areas on greens where a ball won't sit and hitting fairways becomes a lot harder.  That's fine, hitting out of the rough takes spin off the ball and that's kind of desireable in the wind anyway.

[Andy Troeger]

I don't understand what Patrick Mucci is talking about when he says a course becomes "unplayable in a 4 to 5 club wind".  Maybe unplayable from the sense of someone stuck on a mindset of shooting a certain number, but golf can certainly be played, even if there are some areas on greens where a ball won't sit and hitting fairways becomes a lot harder.  That's fine, hitting out of the rough takes spin off the ball and that's kind of desireable in the wind anyway.

I don't think "unplayable" is the word I'd use for very windy days, but I agree with Pat's general premise that the golf course is changed so much under those conditions that you're not really interacting with the course as it was intended. I'm sure courses that play well in these winds exist in windy locales around the world, but the majority of courses (and probably even great courses) just become a matter of survival with these 4-5 club winds. I love trying to hit different types of shots and playing knock-downs as much as just about anyone I know, but it only works so well. By the time the wind is 4-5 clubs, I'd prefer to do something else and wait for a calmer day.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Once one gets in excess of 25/30 miles an hour winds, all courses lose any of their functional design features and the game becomes more of a guessing game, beyond the control of the design team.

I feel that once you get into the realms of 4 and 5 club winds, the course becomes unintersting as the day becomes nothing but survival, and to me that really is not much fun



I wrote this earlier in the thread, and think it serves to agree with Pat's side and that of Shivas.
Golf courses simply lose their character once you get into the realms of 4/5 club winds.

Whenever people start talking about a golf course being great in that kind of wind...I know they really do not know what a 4/5 club wind really is!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Siebert,

I would ask you the same question I asked the others.

Where was it that you played in a 4-5 club length or a 45 mph wind ?

And, what was the stimp speed on the greens that day ?

And, how sloped or contoured were the greens ?

When I played at Bandon and Pacific Dunes I immediately realized that green speeds had to be capped by common sense. (aka wind velocity)

I don't know that you could finish a round on those courses with 10-12 stimped greens on their typical windy days.

[Doug Siebert]

The greens weren't stimping at 12, obviously.  Almost all such rounds I had in such conditions were played in Ireland or Scotland.  I don't know if they have any greens that stimp much beyond 10 on a regular basis, both due to the ferocity of the wind and the more contoured greens typical over there.  I couldn't really tell you how fast they were running, but they are generally about 9 in my experience.  Muirfield's were quicker than any I've played over there, at least 10.5 or maybe 11, but it wasn't windy when I played it.

In addition, most of those courses have many greens that are sheltered to some extent by the dunes, so you don't always get the full effect of the wind, or only get it over part of the green.  It is only on certain greens like Ballybunion's 7th or Lahinch's 7th that are hard against the sea and fully exposed to the wind.  Perhaps they prepare those greens a bit differently to keep them reasonable.  But even in such conditions while the ball had a lot of wobble at address (best to not ground your putter!) it would never move from its location once it has settled for 10-15 seconds unless a really extreme gust comes up.

Patrick, do you think it is a bad thing that the green speed must be capped due to the prevailing wind speeds?  Their speeds are already capped by the wildness of the greens, and the wind speed backing it up means no idiot greens committee can come along and decide to soften the contour of the greens to allow them to stimp a couple feet faster.

[ForkaB]

Pat, et. al.

The last time I played under the extreme condiitions we are talking about was August 2004 in Brora.  Unfortunately I had completely forgotten to pack my anemometer or my Stimpmeter --but I do have some FACTS which might shed some light on the debate.

1.  I played Brora with a brother-in-law (Gary) who is an ex European Tour player and the strongest and most talented golfer I have ever played with.
2.  Into the wind, Gary hit 3-iron to the 9th, a downhill 150 yard hole.  I hit 4-iron about 30 yards short.  Iin calm conditions it would be an easy wedge for him and a 9-iron for me.
3.  Downwind, Gary drove his ball through the green on the 420 yard 15th.

I think we can safely assume that we were playing in at least a "4-5 club" wind.

4.  As this was the high season and only a few days after the conclusion of their biggest tournamnent, I think we can assume that the green speeds were near Brora's maximum, which I would say (having played there for 25+ years) is 10-11 (Sean Arble thinks they are higher, but I disagree).
5.  The Brora greens have some severe slopes in them
6.  NONE of our balls was EVER set in motion by the wind from a stationary position on the greens.  (There was a bit of wobbling going on, but if you are a GOLFER, you deal with that!).

So, it was golf we were playing--extreme to be sure, but but in no way "goofy" golf.

As a corollary, the day we played Brora, the 2nd round of stroke play qualifying for the higher handicap group (12-18) of the Carnegie Shield was being held at Dornoch.  The wind was very similar to Brora on that day (I know because I was at both places that day--they are 30 miles apart), and while the scores were higher than normal, the course was highly playable.  Nobody walked in, there were the normal number of unrecorded scores (maybe 10%).  There were a few gross scores in the low-mid 80's, and the net qualifying score for the two days was (I think) something like 155, which is probably 2-3 strokes higher than normal.

As a second corollary, I played Dornoch the next two days in the lower handicap qualifying, and while the wind had dropped to a gentle zephyr (15-20 MPH), it was still significant, and the greens were not as fast as in 2003 (when they were measured at 12-13), but were certainly in double figures, and the qualifying scores were also relatively normal.

Pat

Could it be that your golfing experience in the wind is limited to courses that are not as well designed to cope with extreme conditions as Brora and Dornoch?  If so, it would serve your GCA education to seek out these places and see how much fun it can be to play them "at the edge."  They certainly sort out the golfers from the floggers and the Milquetoasts who need calm conditions to beleive they are playing the game......

[Sean_A]

Pat, et. al.

The last time I played under the extreme condiitions we are talking about was August 2004 in Brora.  Unfortunately I had completely forgotten to pack my anemometer or my Stimpmeter --but I do have some FACTS which might shed some light on the debate.

1.  I played Brora with a brother-in-law (Gary) who is an ex European Tour player and the strongest and most talented golfer I have ever played with.
2.  Into the wind, Gary hit 3-iron to the 9th, a downhill 150 yard hole.  I hit 4-iron about 30 yards short.  Iin calm conditions it would be an easy wedge for him and a 9-iron for me.
3.  Downwind, Gary drove his ball through the green on the 420 yard 15th.

I think we can safely assume that we were playing in at least a "4-5 club" wind.

4.  As this was the high season and only a few days after the conclusion of their biggest tournamnent, I think we can assume that the green speeds were near Brora's maximum, which I would say (having played there for 25+ years) is 10-11 (Sean Arble thinks they are higher, but I disagree).
5.  The Brora greens have some severe slopes in them
6.  NONE of our balls was EVER set in motion by the wind from a stationary position on the greens.  (There was a bit of wobbling going on, but if you are a GOLFER, you deal with that!).

So, it was golf we were playing--extreme to be sure, but but in no way "goofy" golf.

As a corollary, the day we played Brora, the 2nd round of stroke play qualifying for the higher handicap group (12-18) of the Carnegie Shield was being held at Dornoch.  The wind was very similar to Brora on that day (I know because I was at both places that day--they are 30 miles apart), and while the scores were higher than normal, the course was highly playable.  Nobody walked in, there were the normal number of unrecorded scores (maybe 10%).  There were a few gross scores in the low-mid 80's, and the net qualifying score for the two days was (I think) something like 155, which is probably 2-3 strokes higher than normal.

As a second corollary, I played Dornoch the next two days in the lower handicap qualifying, and while the wind had dropped to a gentle zephyr (15-20 MPH), it was still significant, and the greens were not as fast as in 2003 (when they were measured at 12-13), but were certainly in double figures, and the qualifying scores were also relatively normal.

Pat

Could it be that your golfing experience in the wind is limited to courses that are not as well designed to cope with extreme conditions as Brora and Dornoch?  If so, it would serve your GCA education to seek out these places and see how much fun it can be to play them "at the edge."  They certainly sort out the golfers from the floggers and the Milquetoasts who need calm conditions to beleive they are playing the game......

Rich

I am sure that Brora doesn't make it a policy to keep their greens stimping in double figures.  However, when I played there these were the fastest greens I have ever encountered.  It wasn't because of greenkeeping though.  I think it was from drought, several days of sunny weather and several days of high winds.  The greens weren't short.  In fact, they looked as though they weren't cut for some time.  The greens were glassy.  I have seen this glassy look at a few other courses, but not as extreme as Brora's.  All in all it made for a great day's golf.

As for wind.  Well, I am no expert.  Perhaps the wind at Muirfield was higher than 45 mph.  I don't really know, I tend to estimate down.  I can say that Muirfield wasn't a lot of fun in that kind of wind.  I could see Brora being much funner because it is nowhere near as difficult.  

In the end, I think I agree with you assuming one is playing a fairly forgiving course in high winds.  The breaking point for me is when a ball at rest starts to roll because of wind.  However, I wouldn't wish for 40mph wind.  15 mph is plenty!

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

The "glassiness" or sheen of Brora's greens when they are in heat (literally and figuratively!) is perhaps the course's most defining feature.  They shimmer in the summer sun like mirages and seem unreachable as well as unputtable.  But, as we know, they are neither and only require a bit of nerve and a bit of skill to negotiate their charm.  With or without any wind.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Siebert,

No, I don't think it's a bad thing to cap green speeds when winds are high, I think it's common sense.

Rich Goodale,

Wind speeds and green speeds are a little like lost balls, everyone exagerates where they think they are.

Seminole can get its greens pretty fast and a good number of the greens are sloped.  There's not a doubt in my mind that a 4-5 club length wind with a stimp over 10 will move the ball off of the putting surface in many areas.

I've played on enough windy sites to understand the relationship between green speeds, slope and wind speeds.

Critical mass isn't difficult to reach when two, let alone three, of the components are combined.

[ForkaB]

Pat

Why do you choose to ignore the hard evidence I gave you.  Is it maybe because you can't handle the TRUTH!

We now know from George Peper that Seminole is just an average Florida course.  Get over it!

Slightly more seriously, it is a fact that greens at the better courses in Scotland can and do "stimp" at 12-13 (these are measurements made for sanctioned tournaments, at the request of the golfing authorities) and additional facts include that the wind does blow over there and the greens are sloped and it is virtually unknown to have balls blown off of greens or failing to come to rest.

So, what's up, Doc?  Maybe its the grass, which can be "sticky" even when rolling very fast.  That's my scientific conclusion and I'm sticking to it!