News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Mike_Cirba

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2002, 07:27:59 PM »
Patrick,

How would you explain the superb British Open last year at Lytham?  The course was 6,800 yards, par 71, with fairways much wider than what was seen at Bethpage.  Do you think it provided an adequate test, and if so, what accounted for that?

Yes, if torrential rains occur, it's tough to get firm and fast conditions.  But, wasn't Bethpage uniformly green and lush going into the week, despite the drought in the northeast over the past several months?  

Would you agree that American expectations of "conditioning" acounted for that look?  I know from playing there that the "old" Bethpage used to get really brown and crisp.  

Don't get me wrong.  I'm happy that millions were spent to upgrade and improve the conditioning, but turning it into lush, Augusta-like conditions might be part of the reason that firm and fast wasn't possible.  Of course, 25 to 28 yard wide fairways generally make firm and fast impossible, as well.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2002, 07:40:05 PM »
Patrick:
50 yard - 100 yard fairways.  Tiger will still problably win.
Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bruceski

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2002, 08:03:05 PM »
Hmmmm. Is this thread degenerating into a discourse on how the British Open exemplifies everything that is right with golf, and how the U.S. Open is diametrically the opposite? Pretty hackneyed stuff...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2002, 08:24:16 PM »
Bruceski;

No, but the thread first diverged into a discussion that only super-long, super-tight, deep roughed courses with aerial carries and ultra-fast greens could challenge the best in the game, and that strategy was "dead" at the top level of the game.

I simply asked the question that is yet unanswered;

Why did Lytham hold up last year when it offered none of those things in its defense?

I think that's pretty fair and legitimate.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bruceski

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2002, 08:48:45 PM »
Mike,

All of your points are valid. I happen to love links-style courses and greatly look forward to every British Open Championship. I basically side with those who view the four majors as distinct yet equally important examinations of the pro golfer's skill. I also agree that the winner's score is irrelevant with regard to measuring a major's worth.

I also agree with you that a shorter course can produce a top-notch winner (like Duval or Woods) if that course employs certain elements of design. For example, Southern Hills was more about doglegs that took the driver out the player's hands. Lytham seemed a lot about very punitive bunkers that made deep rough look like a walk in the park.

That said, I stand behind my conviction that Bethpage Black more than adequately tested multiple facets of the pro game, including driving, putting, course management, and the use of every club in the bag. There are also many holes at the Black that test decision making, such as numbers 4, 5, 7, 9, 12, and 13.

The Black was compromised, IMO, by the deluge of rain that occurred not only during the tournament, but also one week before (when the NYC area received at least an inch of rain overnight). If the course had played faster and the greens were firmer, I believe the course would have emphasized even more strategy. Unfortunately, over the weekend the softened Black was an exhibition of the aerial assault game. It's one thing to see these guys hit their approaches on TV, it's another to see in person how they seem to make the 200 yd approach fall out of the sky at a right angle before it hits the green. I can't envision any course -- no matter its setup and pretournament conditioning -- protecting itself from such skill.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2002, 11:01:41 PM »
Tom Paul:

I would also like to have a few more days where I execute the shots I'm capable of playing!

But, I really do feel the game is better when uncertainty exists whether you are going to pull off a shot.

Imagine, for instance a far left pin placement on #13 at Pine Valley.  I'm guessing that the challenge really isn't that great for a world class player.  

But, imagine what goes through a 10 handicap's mind.  He knows if he plays too conservative he just may leave himself in three putt territory, but also knows that if he goes at the pin he may overcook things and wind up in the hazard.

Okay, how about something in the middle, you ask?  Well, this thought also goes through the ten handicapper's mind, but he really isn't sure he'll pull that off either.

Being not so good just may be better.  You may experience more.....more about course strategy and management.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2002, 06:23:33 AM »
I'm more and more inclined to believe that the only reasonable way to challenge the pros without going to 8000 yard golf courses is to grow heavy rough  :(  Give them wide fairways undulating or not, and they'll just hit irons off the tee.  On #5 at Bethpage, a 460 yard hole, Tiger hit 3I/8I!!  What are you supposed to do?  You can attempt to keep the approaches and greens firm, but at Bethpage, no one cared about the approaches because they never used them!   And firm greens are weather dependent!  

Problem with the U.S. Open (which I naively thought they were starting to mitigate) was the lost art of the recovery shot.  Despite the greens that should have been rolling at 10 instead of 12, Pinehurst was my favorite Open in the last several years.  You saw all the creativeness and shot making ability come out in the players.  Clearly that was NOT the case at this years tournament.  

The best player won, but he can win anywhere!

Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2002, 06:35:14 AM »
Mark Fine,

The "recovery shot" is well tested at the Masters and the British Open.

The US Open is intended to be a different test.  I'm happy the USGA can see the big picture and avoid making their event just like the other majors.

What's bad is when Augusta or the R&A follows the USGA example.  That, too, undermines the concept of creating different tests.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2002, 07:19:40 AM »
Tim,
Do any of the Majors offer a "compete" test of the game of golf?  Should they?  Can they?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2002, 08:36:33 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Why don't we get the aerial up and see if its pure width, or perceived width.  There is a substantive difference.

Wide fairways, with no impediments (bunkers, hazards,)  will offer the pros a turkey shoot.

Is there any wind there ?  how does it's velocity compare to what you typically get at Bethpage or other US OPEN courses, Shinnecock excluded.

Are the bunkers PENAL ?

Is the Rough deeper ??

Let's look at all the facts and factors before drawing a black and white conclusion.

I suspect the courses are inherently different.

What two dozen courses in the US do you think should host the US OPEN ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2002, 06:26:45 PM »
Mark Fine:

Have to mention this to clarify the record -- Tiger did hit the clubs you indicated on #5 -- but on Sunday that was with a heavy downwind condition.

Also, Mark when you say the lost art of the recovery shot was absent at Bethpage -- I beg to differ. Players could from time to time escape and get their balls near the putting surface but let's not confuse the Open with the Hope Classic. ;D

If you want impossible rough I urge you to keep in mind the '83 conditions at Oakmont where hay resided just off the sloping and contoured fairways!

The Open set-up has been with us for quite some time -- bemoaning some aspect such as a ground game which has really never been present at the Open (maybe minus Pinehurst #2). The aerial game has been the motif for the event.

Mark -- look at the names of the players who finsihed near the top BESIDES TIGER! You see a combination of players and styles. In my mind -- that's a credit to the Black.

There's this notion that the Black is some sort of Frankenstein course and nothing more than long slog. That is plain and utter BS! The Black has plenty of character and anyone who has played it will see it. Let's keep in mind the USGA preps the course for a one week exercise. In addition, weather conditions really influenced the manner and style of the course for that week. Aerial golf was possible because greens held. Unfortunately, no one can control Mother Nature when a major rolls around the block.

Lastly, rough should be a condition of the Open Championship. You don't need hay -- but you need some sort of deterrent otherwise it becomes bombs away. Bethpage Black had dense uniform rough and from I heard and observed in covering the event the majority of players believed the course / set-up was appropriate given the nature of the title.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bo
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2002, 07:54:06 PM »
Mark Fine,

I'm more concerned that the majors AS A PACKAGE offer a "complete" test with each event disproportionately emphasizing different skills.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Highly-entertaining golf becomes a crushing bore
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2006, 08:34:34 AM »
Sean,

You'll note that a few of us were "right", even way back then.  ;)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back