[Mark Leo]

Tom,
Let's send the call out to all the designers and historians around here for the official GCA term for the "delayed death" hole.  I'm trying to think of any others......

 

[Matt_Ward]

Since few people have answered my last post on pin placements -- I'll go ahead with this.

On the par-3 5th -- the toughest is the right rear for me. You have to hit maximum club to get it back that far. However, hit it too far and the chip back is quite testing.

On the par-4 14th -- the front right area is truly demanding. Huck is so right -- the small green precludes many easy or hard placements -- they are all relatively equal but the right side for me is indeed tougher than the others.

Mark L:

Driving the green is not luck -- you need to thread the needle very carefully -- as it should be. Driving par-4's should not be so routine. It should go beyond the well struck shot to one of epic proportitions.

Huck:

Tiger is not getting to the 14th with a 2-iron unless a gale is behind his back. Look for a cut driver -- possibly off the deck.

[Mark Leo]

Matt,
That ground in the landing area at 14 BT ,for whatever club you decide to hit, is not in any way flat.  It is full of bumps and swales and there is no predictable trough or "needle" as you call it.  A ball hitting onto ground like that can not be predicted to go in any one direction or another, and therefore any drive reaching the green is complete luck, no other way to put it!

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Do yourself a favor -- simply eyeball any of the great links in the world and they have a variety of bumps and bruises along the fairway line -- a bad kick is part of the game -- ditto a good kick that comes forward to help a wayward shot and send it back on the right track.

For a hole to provide some jetway of 100% predictability is not IMHO a great holes. The 14th at Bandon Trails is clearly testing and one needs to combine a high dosage of skill along with a bit of favorable action by the golf gods.

[Mark Leo]

Matt,
I did myself a favor. There is absolutely no doubt that bumps and bruises are what make the great golf courses of the world what they are (e.g.- Old Course, among numerous others). The issue we were discussing was whether or not driving the green at 14BT was a reasonable option for a player on the tee. Clearly it is not. Depending on "favorable action by the golf gods" to me constitutes luck and not a calculated, aggressive golf shot.  
Interesting hole.
Provocative hole.
Controversial hole.
Not a great hole; no tee-ball options.

[Tom Jefferson]

So, Mark, you correctly calculate, then execute the agressive golf shot, and accept the luck that comes with the bounce!

Whether it is a 'great' hole, or a 'very good' hole, is just semantics and judgements and opinions, but it clearly is..................the game of golf!

Tom

[peter_p]

Tom,
How big is the 14th green? Square feet and width.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Maybe I wasn't making myself clear and there's a failure to understand something I said -- when a golfer attempts to hit a par-4 with the drive the shot isn't supposed to be some sort of automatic akin to a wedge pitch from 90 yards or so.

The hole invites the big play which a great short par-4 should do. The key thing to keep in mind is that it takes an extraordinary shot from the tee to reach the green. That's entirely appropriate in my book. The idea that somehow the thought of driving the green must be "reasonable" in your mind is failing to understand what I just wrote here and in past answers.

Only the most daring and those with the highest degree of execution should even contemplate that play. It's not set-up for Joe Sixpack golfer to slug his tee shot with his oversized driver and attempt such a play with a willy-nilly attitude or execution.

If players opt away from the big play and goes the more conservative route they don't then get a free pass with a simply pitch to a green that will hold just about anything thrown up in the air. Keep in mind, less you forget, but today's clubs -- especially in the wedge area, come with an assortment of lofts to handle just about any situation.

If you should bother to study the great short holes of the UK and Ireland you will find that some sort of "reasonable option" is not front and center at all times -- nor should it be. Sometimes the onus is on the golfer to unearth the options -- even if they be a tad bit more demanding -- and simply deal with them accordingly. The 14th at BT does that and more.

[Tom Jefferson]

Peter Pittock;

I will venture a guess on the size of #14, but must first acknowledge that I am neither the expert in that matter nor am I the chosen spokesman for anything Bandon Dunes. I am on staff at Bandon Dunes but my duties in no way come close to that knowledge.  Ken Nice is the super at the Trails, very competent in all regards, and he is the one who knows that green size.  Troy Russell is the Resort Super and also has a good handle on many matters.

In the spirit of this conversation, however, I will GUESS that the 14th green is +/- 3500 square feet.

It's not at all large, and is effectively smaller by it's pitch from front to rear.

Sorry I missed you these past few days....I hope you had a great visit!

Tom

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