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Adam_F_Collins

What Drives the Architects to Design?
« on: February 27, 2006, 11:54:23 PM »
What urge are you satisfying in designing golf courses? Why this and not some other occupation? Why do you get up in the morning to design golf courses? What drives you? What are you after; dreaming of?

Ryan Farrow

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 12:14:34 AM »
Desiging golf courses isnt a profession you just stumble upon. Its not an accounting or business degree that the normal college student will take just because they have no rea motivation to find ther life-long occupation. At least for my pursit of becomming a golf course architect it all boils down to what you enjoy doing. And i know everyone here has a true passion for golf and golf course design. It is what will make me enjoy going to work everyday. Work  is pretty much your life(aside from family).

Scott Witter

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 08:54:06 AM »
Adam,

Are you kidding me....well basically it is all a total POWER trip and since I have always been a scratch golfer, very opinionated with a huge ego and hung around country clubs my whole life, I thought what the heck, I guess I could do worse for a living and so I just made it happen.  Besides, I thought all the math and analytical crap that went most other professions would stress me out way too much each morning.  Oh, and my dreams...how I can make guys like you happy each time you step up to the tee or walk on the green.

Oh BTW since you seem to be interested in all the details, I had oatmeal for breakfast, took the dog for a run, brought my daughter to school and picked up a Starbucks coffee on my way to the office.  Insert smiley face here!

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 09:42:21 AM »
I have always designed. After my father passed away I realized it was a passion to create new things and solve problems. That is what he did all his life...although in optics and machinery.

(My latest dream is on site trying to wedge holes into very odd circumstances. I don't know why. A few months ago I was building a tee inside a mall-like building. But, the rest of the course looked pretty good.)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Kyle Harris

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 09:43:45 AM »
I have always designed. After my father passed away I realized it was a passion to create new things and solve problems. That is what he did all his life...although in optics and machinery.

(My latest dream is on site trying to wedge holes into very odd circumstances. I don't know why. A few months ago I was building a tee inside a mall-like building. But, the rest of the course looked pretty good.)

Reminds me of the time I hit that hooded 3-iron down the all of my freshman year dorm.

PSU winters were killer.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 10:05:34 AM »
Oh, I still drive myself to the office...... ;)

Seriously, like Forrest, I was always a doodler.  Back in the days when dry cleaned shirts came folded with cardboard backs, my father saved them so that I could draw.  I would draw cities, countries, houses, airports, ports and railroad yards. You name it, I drew it.  

When I played golf for the first time, that passsion just got channeled.  Oddly enough, "driving" was one thing that pushed me to gca. I had actually taken bus fare, expecting to need a ride home or at least back to the clubhouse (I was 12 at the time) and not realizing that a course could be routed back to the clubhouse, not just once, but twice!  When I climbed the ninth tee, (hungry as a young man usually is after expending about 60 shots in 8 holes on my first round) and saw the clubhouse behind the the green, and smelled the hamburgers cooking, I said to myself, "The guy who designed this is a genius" and I knew right then I wanted to be a golf course architect....(true story)

There are DISC personality tests you can get on line.  I took a few of them over the years and I always register right in the classic designer profile.  I suspect that most, but not all designers are about the same story.

Actually, I think every architecture school ought to administer these to freshman to give them a better chance to assess their future in design.  By the end of freshman year, you could tell who were the hotshot designers.  Everyone in that category both finished school and eventually opened up their own shops.  Those who finished despite not being real designy types are now park directors, or other related fields, or out of the business completely.

BTW, as a boss, I can almost tell from the graphic work on resumes who is and isn't a designer.  If not immediately, it becomes obvious in a few months in the office.

To any aspiring golf designer out there, I think you should find an online version of the DISC test and figure out if you really are the design type, as talent must match desire.  Be aware that the real design job is about 10% creativity and 90% other stuff necessary to make a project happen.

One other test is to see how easy it is for people to talk you out of your dream. If you can be talked out of it, (and believe me, everyone from your teachers to your mother will try) even for a second of self doubt, you probably won't make it as a gca.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ryan Farrow

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 11:03:27 AM »
Jeff i dare you. Just try. Try and talk me out of my dream. I beg you.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 11:58:04 AM »
Ryan,

I never would, as everyone tried with me, but it has worked out well.  I will let you and the marketplace decide where you fit.

But I had several of those scenes like from the movie "Paper Chase" where the law professor hands the student a quarter, and tells him "Call Mom and tell her you aren't going to be a lawyer....."

Of course, Mom was right there with the professors, who thought I should "save the world" with my design talents rather than "waste" them on golf design........Dad told me I should "get in business and use my brain....."

Do I sound bitter?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 12:10:11 PM »
I just think it's such a cool thing to be able to build a golf course from a blank canvas...haven't NO artistic talent whatsoever - I would think a lot of your guys' skill is that of an artist - I can't even fathom doing it....

I just wish one of you guys would get a jobsite near Chicago and allow morons like me to simply come out for a visit once in awhile to see the progression from nothing to a course:  now THAT would really be cool!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2006, 01:07:19 PM »
Adam....I am very similar to Jeff and Forrest.
My makeup is total designer, creator and builder of just about anything....its really my only way of functioning and things would go very badly for me if I could not express myself... it is my main link when trying to communicate with the outside world.

At this moment aside from golf design, I am very involved in some major master and land planning projects, conservation/preservation subdivision development, commercial and residential building design, landscape architectural projects and throw in a little interior and furniture design and now you know what causes my glazed grin at times....... this is in no way a complaint or meant to impress anyone, but just an honest attempt to answer your question as I feel its a sincere one.  

« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:08:23 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ryan Farrow

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2006, 01:09:06 PM »
Paul, all throughout our architecture program at ASU I have heard that it does not matter if u can draw. I spent a day at an architecture firm and heard first hand how many people did not have the skill. I think one guy in the office handled pretty much all of the drawing for the office. To be able to bring your ideas in your head to some sort of graphic median is another thing, and that you must have to be a successful designer.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 01:29:23 PM »
Short answer: Ego.

A golf course architect is some one who thinks they can design a course better (or at least as well) as anyone else. (Scott Witter did mention ego, so he gets extra points).
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2006, 03:10:13 PM »
Steve,

It seemingly does take a certain amount of ego to succeed as a golf course architect, but I am not sure it takes that to want to become one........and I do know some pretty humble folks who have suceeded in the biz. :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2006, 04:49:57 PM »
Steve O.

Actually I was being a wise cracker in my original post, but apparently no one else appreciated it.

Truth be told and you can ask anyone who knows me, or for whom I have worked, I have little to no ego...well some, a tiny bit, but hey who doesn't if they are a designer, at least I am willing to admit it.  Second truth, I am a 10 handicap player with the skills to be much better, but no time to practice...life goes on.  Third truth, the only private clubs I have ever been on are those I have worked for, or those hundreds I have visited to study the course.

Like Paul C.  I am a designer of many things.  I am an solid site designer and as a landscape architect I still love doing a few high-end residential homes each year.  It keeps my brain stimulated with plant materials and I really enjoy this level of detail design such as cottage gardens and big perennial gardens.  For the last 25 years I have also designed and made custom furniture...something I look forward to doing more of upon retirement around 80 yrs old or so.  You know us golf architects...we never want to stop.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2006, 05:51:14 PM »
Ryan .....When I hear more and more that the ability to draw as a designer isn't necessary, I think the person saying so probably can't....I would be like a singer with lockjaw if my hands were tied....I have a hard time talking without a pencil in my hand.
....and I can still work just fine when the power is out.

Learn to draw, its a mind to hand synapse thing ;).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 06:42:51 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2006, 06:03:40 PM »
Steve O:  I once said to one of my associates that golf course design is "a business of big egos".  I didn't just mean the architects, though -- our clients have egos, the contractors have egos, the shapers have egos, the grow-in superintendents have egos, the engineers have egos, even the environmental objectors have egos -- and we all wear them on our sleeves.

I honestly do not know what drives me to design golf courses.  From the time I was a kid, I have always felt comfortable and at peace on a golf course, and from the time I started working for Pete Dye I've always felt comfortable on a construction site, like I belonged there.

I wouldn't score very highly as a "designer" on a personality test ... I would score highly as an "engineer" but really as a problem solver.  But I would bet my next design fee that many of the early architects were in the latter category, too ... I can't see Macdonald or MacKenzie as typical "designers".

TEPaul

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2006, 06:51:29 PM »
Paul Cowley said;

"My makeup is total designer, creator and builder of just about anything with not a whole lot of say about it....its really my only way of functioning and things would go very badly for me if I could not express myself as it is my main link when trying to communicate with the outside world."

I can attest to the fact that Paul is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth there.

Not long ago we were sitting somewhere having a drink or something and I was chattering away and even though Paul had this look on his face like he wanted to tell me he thought I was an OK bloke he actually never said a word, he just took out a red pen and drew this really cool Tillinghast Reef hole on my forehead.


Ryan Farrow

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2006, 07:32:28 PM »
Ryan .....When I hear more and more that the ability to draw as a designer isn't necessary, I think the person saying so probably can't....I would be like a singer with lockjaw if my hands were tied....I have a hard time talking without a pencil in my hand.
....and I can still work just fine when the power is out.

Learn to draw, its a mind to hand synapse thing ;).

ive been drawing things ever since i was a kid. it was something i always enjoyed doing. I can draw well, but I dont think we all need to draw like Mike Stranz to get our views across. I think the words  " I can't draw" is a sorry excuse to run away from any type of design profession.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2006, 07:37:32 PM »
I think thats a really odd concept. I can tell you that if something is drawn well, it is more likely to be accepted as a good design idea.  A crude sketch, well thought out, won't and should never be presented until you have the absolute trust of the client.  Even then, they may question you!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2006, 08:04:32 PM »
Other than the original routing plan for Sebonack, I never did any sketches of any of the holes until the very end of the project, when I pulled out a crude drawing of my new idea for the 13th hole for Mr. Nicklaus and Mr. Lipe.

I think they were touched that I had actually tried to draw something, but Jack didn't like my idea.  So now I'm not drawing anything again for a while.

Ryan Farrow

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2006, 08:14:31 PM »
If you have some talent you can turn a rough concept sketch into a good 3d model without being that great at drawing. I think drawing helps a lot more in designing golf courses or an industrial design type field. It’s a lot easier when you’re working with a building(not being able to draw well). I just don’t think being a talented artist is as important as you might think in a design field. I know it sound strange but now that we have computers to help us, it can be done. But it all comes down to getting your ideas on a piece of paper and being able to present them.

Just my amateur opinion.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 08:45:38 PM by Ryan Farrow »

Ryan Farrow

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2006, 08:19:29 PM »
Tom, I’m shocked that u have given up that easily. Quick question Did Mike Strantz produce drawings for most of the holes he designed? I have only read a few interviews, but I still like the way that he used his artistic talents in his design process.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 08:19:54 PM by Ryan Farrow »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2006, 09:07:36 PM »
Guys...I'm not suggesting that what I mean by drawing is what one would consider ready for fine arts framing....to the contrary, a wore out folded topo with about three different colored pen renditions, one over the other until you maybe get it right or an idea sketch that ends up on the cab floor of a dozer, all qualify for me [TomD, send me your Jack/Sebonack sketch and it will be framed, but not for E-bay ;)].
...as an aside, Jeff Mingay has expressed an interest in compiling Mike Stranz's drawings for publication and I have been helping a little with connections....it seems alot of his work ended up on the floor of many a cab, but not out of disrespect....these were his working drawings and only served as such.
A different talent indeed.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:07:44 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Adam_F_Collins

Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2006, 09:51:32 PM »
I wouldn't score very highly as a "designer" on a personality test ... I would score highly as an "engineer" but really as a problem solver.  But I would bet my next design fee that many of the early architects were in the latter category, too ... I can't see Macdonald or MacKenzie as typical "designers".

What is a "typical designer" to you, Tom? It's not a trick question, I'm actually really interested in people's idea of what a designer is - as opposed to an engineer or a problem-solver.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Drives the Architects to Design?
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2006, 10:05:45 PM »
OK Adam....its really about identifying as many options that might be appropriate to the equation or 'problem' and then picking the right combination of these that best represent a solution....to the designer anyway [and /or his audience].
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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