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Steve_ Shaffer

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French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« on: February 27, 2006, 07:43:58 PM »
From golfcoursenews.com


French Lick, Ind. – With a $350 million resort restoration and casino development as its backdrop, the Hill Course by Donald Ross at the French Lick Springs Resort & Casino is undergoing a transformation, as it begins to reassume the look of the course where Walter Hagen won the 1924 PGA Championship. A $3.5 million project, the completely refurbished course is slated to open in May 2006.

Executives from the French Lick Springs Resort & Casino, which operates the Hill Course, met Feb. 22 with lead golf course architect Lee Schmidt, principal with Schmidt-Curley designs, and Michael Fay, president of the Donald Ross Society, to review the restoration progress. The resort is committed to its goal of ensuring the course is restored as closely as possible to Ross’ original plans.

Must-play courses, must-see destination
Steve Ferguson, chairman of Cook Group, Inc., which owns 50 percent of the resort project that includes both the French Lick Springs Resort & Casino and the West Baden Springs Resort, described the Hill Course renovation as an “impact project.” Coupled with the construction of a Pete Dye-designed course near the West Baden property, Ferguson says, “We soon will have two must-play courses in Indiana. This truly will be a special place.”

Ferguson emphasized the Hill Course and new Dye course are vital components in the overall restoration and development project. “French Lick will be the Midwest’s premier resort, casino and golf destination,” Ferguson says.

A true master
Serving as architect for the course restoration is Schmidt and his Scottsdale, Ariz.-based firm. Schmidt, a Carmel, Ind., native and Purdue University graduate, has developed a master plan for the project. Using the original Ross plans and 1920s aerial photos of the course, Schmidt and his team are bringing back Ross’ signature style, marked primarily by squared undulating greens and deep unforgiving bunkers.

“The greens are the heart of the golf course,” Schmidt says. “They give the Hill Course its character and personality. Over time, the greens here have become smaller and rounder. We will give them the squared-off appearance indicative of Ross’ original design, as well as make them about 40 percent larger.”

With approximately 70 bunkers, the Hill Course remains a force to be reckoned with. Schmidt’s team is not only adding several bunkers, but also expanding a few and touching up the rest. Sand will be replaced to ensure consistent texture throughout the course, and archaic clay drain tiles will be replaced with plastic corrugated ones.

The bunkers’ drain tiles won’t be the only water-related adjustments. The “new” course will feature a fully automated, computerized irrigation system. “This system will give the golf course superintendent better control of watering, thus improving the overall playability and quality of the course,” Schmidt says.

According to Schmidt, other improvements will include an environmentally friendly drainage and water redistribution system, wider concrete cart paths with less obtrusive routes, and re-leveled tee boxes. Bermuda grass will be planted on all fairways to maintain consistency, and native fescues will be planted to add contrast and texture to the course.

The stamp of approval
No one knows more about how a Ross course should look than Fay. So, it’s no wonder he was asked to consult on this project from the very beginning.

Fay has been with the Donald Ross Society since it was launched in 1989. The society is currently involved in 130 Ross-related projects nationwide. And, according to Fay, 375 of Ross’ original 413 golf courses are still in play today.

Fay stressed how important it is for the course’s owners and architects to do their homework before restoring a Ross design.

“When I came to French Lick, I was thrilled to find that the homework had been done,” Fay says. “They had the original plans and aerial photos, and they had studied them intently. This is one of the most comprehensive plans I’ve ever seen, and the project is going along about as well as any restoration could go.”

Fay reiterated some of the Ross signature stylistic elements, adding that details like augmented, squared greens add to the overall experience of playing the course. For instance, Fay noted that the greens’ size and shape offer unique pin placements, giving golfers additional challenges each time they play.

“This will be a very exciting golf course,” Fay said. He believes the Hill Course will present golfers of all skill levels with a number of challenges.

“If there’s any place that will be able to defend par, it’s this course right here in French Lick,” he says.”
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Bob Barriger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2006, 07:57:32 PM »
I was there in Sept '05 and talked with the head pro, they were getting ready to close the course in about 2 weeks after I was there.  They had already cut back some of the greens to the original size and verticut them also. They had also done some work on the fairways to reseed them with bermuda, seed type unknown.  According to the HP, a Sept reopening seemed more realistic.  The good thing is that there still is very few trees on the course to impede any growing in of the greens and fairways. Pete Dye is doing a second course there a couple of miles away from the resort but for the same casino/resort project.

Mike_Young

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2006, 08:24:46 PM »
From golfcoursenews.com




Executives from the French Lick Springs Resort & Casino, which operates the Hill Course, met Feb. 22 with lead golf course architect Lee Schmidt, principal with Schmidt-Curley designs, and Michael Fay, president of the Donald Ross Society, to review the restoration progress. The resort is committed to its goal of ensuring the course is restored as closely as possible to Ross’ original plans.

The stamp of approval
No one knows more about how a Ross course should look than Fay. So, it’s no wonder he was asked to consult on this project from the very beginning.

Fay has been with the Donald Ross Society since it was launched in 1989. The society is currently involved in 130 Ross-related projects nationwide. And, according to Fay, 375 of Ross’ original 413 golf courses are still in play today.

Fay stressed how important it is for the course’s owners and architects to do their homework before restoring a Ross design.

“When I came to French Lick, I was thrilled to find that the homework had been done,” Fay says. “They had the original plans and aerial photos, and they had studied them intently. This is one of the most comprehensive plans I’ve ever seen, and the project is going along about as well as any restoration could go.”

Fay reiterated some of the Ross signature stylistic elements, adding that details like augmented, squared greens add to the overall experience of playing the course. For instance, Fay noted that the greens’ size and shape offer unique pin placements, giving golfers additional challenges each time they play.

“This will be a very exciting golf course,” Fay said. He believes the Hill Course will present golfers of all skill levels with a number of challenges.

“If there’s any place that will be able to defend par, it’s this course right here in French Lick,” he says.”

Well just less than a year ago several guys from the Ross society including the President assured me this type of stuff would not e happening....maybe I should remain quiet but this is extremely dangerous...The DRS has now entered the realm of "signature"Watch out....

Heck we see the arguments discussed in regards to ASGCA on here all the time and then we accept this stuff....

Make no mistake...I wish to see the extinction of any dead guy society that steps into this position.....I do not know Mr. Schmidt but from what I have heard of his reputation, I am sure he is more than able to do this project on his own...
Oh....I would assume the club is being charged by the DRS....

And OT...I hear joe torre will have the president of the Yogi Berra fan club working with him during spring training...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 08:27:10 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2006, 08:34:54 PM »
Lee Schmidt is a former long-term associate of Pete Dye and I have to believe the two contracts were somehow intertwined.  As far as I know Lee has never worked on a Ross course, nor anywhere east of the Mississippi.

The statement which raised my eyebrows was that the Ross Society is "currently involved in 130 Ross-related projects nationwide."  I thought they claimed to stay out of the architecture business, but this statement (which could ONLY have been provided by Mike Fay) seems to say they are taking some credit for any work going on at any Ross course nationwide!

The sheer number is also of note:  there are slighly more restoration projects going on at Donald Ross courses today, than there were new golf courses opened in America last year.  It's no wonder architects (and consultants) are tripping over each other to work on them.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2006, 09:07:52 PM »
Of course the DRS is involved in 130 restorations across the country...they also recommend for these projects and wish to be a clearing house...As someone said in a thread last week...restoration expertise without having ever designed a course has become a cottage industry.....when all of the Ross courses have been restored will the Ross experts become Trent jones Experts or maybe dick wilson????  who knows
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Andy Troeger

Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2006, 09:26:31 PM »
I'll be interested if they can ever make this venture a successful one financially. The casino aspect certainly would likely be a potential moneymaker, but French Lick is not exactly easy to get to and the golf course is good but also one that takes multiple plays to appreciate...not typical resort fare. I'm not sure that I thought it was that great to be worth the expense and difficulty to get there from what I thought of it from a couple previous trips (to play in a junior tournament about 10 years ago).

A great Pete Dye gem might change my opinion entirely, however :)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2006, 10:03:40 PM »
I haven't been to French Lick since I was nine years old, so the only hole I remember is the 18th on the Putt-Putt course there, where you had to putt up a U-shaped ramp onto an upper deck ... one of the best mini-golf holes I've ever seen, by the way.

However, Jim Urbina went over and played French Lick while we were working on Quail Crossing, and absolutely loved the old course.  He said that one of the greens at French Lick is the most severe green he's ever seen.

Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2006, 10:18:38 PM »
I haven't been to French Lick since I was nine years old, so the only hole I remember is the 18th on the Putt-Putt course there, where you had to putt up a U-shaped ramp onto an upper deck ... one of the best mini-golf holes I've ever seen, by the way.

However, Jim Urbina went over and played French Lick while we were working on Quail Crossing, and absolutely loved the old course.  He said that one of the greens at French Lick is the most severe green he's ever seen.
I know the one hes talking about, if the greens are fast at all forget about it, take your 4 putt and go :)  I really enjoyed playing there 2 yrs ago, cant wait to see the results

Chris_Blakely

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2006, 11:28:54 PM »
The green Jim Urbina had to be talking about was the 8th.  It is a dog leg left hole that plays to an elevated green in front of a valley.  The green slopes ridiculously hard from back to front.  Both my brother and I were above the pin!!  Not where you want to be.  We both putted off the green.  We both really enjoyed this course.  I am also glad be played it before the "restoration."

Where is the Dye course going to be?  Is the resort plowing under the Bendelow Valley course?

Steve Pozaric

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2006, 11:33:38 PM »
"French Lick is not exactly easy to get to"

From what I remember of my visit a couple of years ago (specifically to play the course - I had to spend a couple of days in Brown County with my wife as penance), not only is it not easy to get to, but, once you are there, you wonder if the town and the old hotel was worth the effort.  The golf though was very good.
Steve Pozaric

Andy Troeger

Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2006, 06:59:09 AM »
"French Lick is not exactly easy to get to"

From what I remember of my visit a couple of years ago (specifically to play the course - I had to spend a couple of days in Brown County with my wife as penance), not only is it not easy to get to, but, once you are there, you wonder if the town and the old hotel was worth the effort.  The golf though was very good.

Steve,
My thoughts exactly. I played in a state junior tournament there four years in a row (first two years on the Valley Cse and last two I graduated to the Hill. The first year I thought the place was pretty cool, the second it was ok, by the third I was pretty bored with things, and the fourth time I swore I was not playing in the event again unless they moved it (which they did, I couldn't have been the only one thinking that).  The highlight of the trip for me was always the annual afternoon trip to Sultan's Run (about 40 mins away I think) after the tournament.

Billsteele

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 09:13:36 AM »
   I have to think that this restoration is vastly preferable to what might have been. The gaming license was originally awarded to the Trump Casino organization. Trump had announce that a renovation of the course would be entrusted to none other than that noted architect Fuzzy Zoeller. Luckily, fate intervened in the form of the Trump organization's financial problems and the license went elsewhere. While the Fuzzter seems like a fine chap, I don't know if he was the right man to tinker with this wonderful course. I also feared that a waterfall might be in the course's future.

   I'm not sure of the viability of French Lick as a resort gambling destination. Several years ago, on a whim, my wife and I took a two day trip over to French Lick. The French Lick hotel had all the charm of the one in "The Shining"...very dark and ominous. However, the building at West Baden Springs is another matter. I assume that it will be part of the new resort and it is one of the neatest structures I have ever seen. Built in the early 1900's, it is opulent on a grand scale. While it had fallen into disrepair, the locals were engaged in a long term renovation of it. Some buildings, like golf courses, are too good to tinker with.

   


 

Mike_Young

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2006, 07:40:34 PM »
Well,
I know the DRS meets this weekend...think any of this will be addressed?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

michael_j_fay

Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2006, 08:34:01 PM »
There are a couple of misquotes in the article.

I told the reporter that the Donald Ross Society has been involved in around 130 restoration projects inthe past 17 years. I told him that our involvementhas been ratehr limited, mostly to the process rather than to the restoration itself.

I have been a paid advisor at French Lick since 1999. I have worked with Dave Harner and John Parker (professional and superintendent, respectively) since then. When Cooke and Lauth bought the property last year it was decided to restore the Ross course. Benchmark Golf is the manager of the facility. They hired Lee Schmidt to do the Architectural work at the Hill course. Benchmark contacted me and asked me to continue to advise. My role is limited (as it should be) and frankly I am quite happy with the work I have seen to date.

I have spent 17 years looking at and quantifying Donald Ross designed courses. I have been to over 220 Ross designs, I have seen original Ross, renovated Ross, restored Ross and practically every other form of Ross (including at least four Ross courses returned to the wild). Regardless of the taunts from Athens, I have a pretty good idea of what Ross restored should look like.

At French Lick we have a member of the ASGCA in Lee Schmidt. He is an eminently qualified Architect without much Ross on his resume. I do not think that is necessarily a bad thing and Lee has shown a good deal of respect to the original plans and an aerial from 1927. I feel that Lee, MacCurrach Construction, Dave Harner, John Parker, Steve Ferguson and Greg French from Benchmark make a very good team andI would be greatly surprised if the course does not turn out very well.

As for the restof the plan. Most of the basic Bendelow (more Sandy Alves than Bendelow) has been sacrificed to the casino and a practice facility. There will be nine holes retained and Lee Schmidt is restoring that nine.

The Dye course will be on the hill behind both the French Lick Resort and the West Baden Spa. Pete Dye said it was the best property he has ever been given.

Lauth-Cooke is spending in the area of $ 360,00,000.00 to complete the casino, renovate the French Lick Hotel and restore the rooms at West Baden. Cooke has owned West Baden for a number of years and restored it to the tune of $ 70,000,000.00 before there was any real talk of casino gambling.

I truly believe that the French Lick-West Baden property with casino and golf will succeed. The restoration and renovation work being done on the French Lick Hotel is being done by a local Architect who is truly transforming the property.

Southern Indiana is not really a hot spot but I think that Mr. Cooke has puthis money where his heart is (he is a Hoosier) and I think he should and will succeed.

Mike_Young

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2006, 09:12:52 PM »
Regardless of the taunts from Athens, I have a pretty good idea of what Ross restored should look like.

No one said you did not know what a restored Ross should look like and no one in any way said anything against the Lee Schmidt....he is really not even a part of this discussion....
the problem is DRS being perceived here as a consultant...and if a club is using you as a consultant that has come from association with the DRS.  While I am sure you might have an idea of what a restored Ross should look like....I would wager you had no say in choosing the architect.....while the DRS will state that they do not recommend...I know that you via them have made off the record recommendations to clubs and have even taken "restoration experts" to clubs and advised them of the mistakes they would be making if they used another group...(EX: BrCC)
I am sure that the DRS has many good ideas and attributes but this makes it seem as though they are now in the consulting realm and that is pure BS...they are basically a fan club and if they choose to archive etc that is admirable but they should go out of their way to remain NUETRAL...you seem to endanger that possibility.
Personally I think if one is to present themselves as a DR consultant they should not be involved with the DRS as an officer or executive.


"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2006, 07:22:02 AM »
Sean,
it would take too long to explain..
remember it is just a fan club....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2006, 09:28:59 AM »
MIke

Does being in a fan club preclude someone from knowing what he is talking about?

Ciao

Sean
I am not going to argue who knows what when it comes to a dead guy....
I am just saying that anything one can just up and join for $75 and then that organization is perceived as the "the authority" by unknowing green committees or clubs .  Such an organization has no credibiity other than on the surface...(unless they fix these things)
discussing such a group is taboo on here as you will note by replies....because most peope actually like the fact they can just plop $75 bucks and belong to the DRS without anyone actually knowing that is the only requirement.

BUT I am sure French Lick will turn out fine due to the architect....not the DRS...
JMO

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2006, 10:28:10 PM »
Yes, I am suggesting that.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Wigler

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Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2006, 07:13:19 PM »
It is a shame IMO that this topic died.  I find there to be very interesting question in whether Fay was working alone as a consultant (In which case, to me, all is kosher) or as a representative of the Ross Society (In which case, I think a conflict of interest clearly exists).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 07:14:01 PM by David Wigler »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:French Lick (Ross) restoration...
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2006, 06:47:58 PM »
It is a shame IMO that this topic died.  I find there to be very interesting question in whether Fay was working alone as a consultant (In which case, to me, all is kosher) or as a representative of the Ross Society (In which case, I think a conflict of interest clearly exists).
Dave,
I would hope the DRS would answer these questions......
I also think that this site considers it taboo to discuss DRS....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"