Three-Shot Par 5's are So Dull

[Phil Benedict]

I spent the last week in Palm Springs playing Shadow Ridge (twice) and PGA West Stadium (once).  Both courses had a true 3-shot par 5 of around 590 yards - the 2nd at Shadow Ridge and 11th at PGA West.  This is from the next to back tees.  Driver, layup and wedge to short iron for everybody except Bubba Watson and his ilk.  I think this type of hole is boring.  Just get your drive out there and lay up to some preferred yardage.  Marginal difference between a great drive and ok drive so long as both are in play.

On the other hand, par fives that can be reached in two with a great drive and second shot are thrilling.  Again, I am speaking of the experience from the perspective of a decent amateur player with above average length, not Bubba Watson.

[Jim_Kennedy]

......unless you play a good one that gives you something to think about on your second shot, like Plainfield's 16th.

Ross placed these cross bunkers on the ridge that bisects the 16th fairway 200 yards from the green. Such bunkers pressure the golfer to execute on both his 1st and 2nd shots, a trait found wanting with many modern three shotters.- Ran

[peter_p]

Lets see what it is for me. Driver, three wood, seven wood.
Yep, real easy.

[PThomas]

probably been beaten to death alaready here, but I wonder if this is the hardest type of hole for architects to design, is such generalizations can be made

[peter_p]

Probably,
The shots to th green can be anywhere up to 275 yards. Hard to design a green to accept so many different shots. Also hard to place hazards to impinge play at all levels and distances. Having said that, Hells Half Acre does the job very nicely.

[Paul Payne]

I tend to like 3 shot par 5's providing they are set up to challenge your second shot.

First, I think there has to be an immediate challenge of some sort which is on play on your second shot. This keeps you from being sloppy in advancing the ball. I agree in that a straight ahead, down the fairway second, on an unreachable par 5 is very dull.

Second, I think the green complex needs to be set up in a fashion that forces you to plan the strategy of your second shot. A pin placement that can reasonably be approached from one side of the fairway and not the other etc. Or false fronts or drops off the back that can impact the angle of play.

If executed well I find it thrilling to have linked together 4 or 5 shots on a hole that could easily produce far worse scores.

On the other hand. I find 2 shot par 5's that are too easily had to be dull as well. A long par 4 is a challenge because you must land your long approach and then hole out in two. A short par 5 plays the same but gives you an extra stroke to finish out. I don't feel the reward as much in those cases.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The ones you referred to may well be boring, but I can think of several that are not....
#7 and 15 at Pine Valley
#2 and 4 at Merion
four wonderful examples of superb 3 shot par 5's

I do however get your point.
I have often thought that must be the hardest job for an architect how to make a 3 shotter be interesting without just making it full of gimmicks.

[mike_malone]

 Michael,

   What is it about #4 at Merion that you find interesting?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

MM
Several things really..firstly the angle that the tee shot has to be hit in order to gain the optimal position to hit your second shot.....if you overdo it, you are in that left rough and hitting wedge at best and then you are left with an almost impossible third shot...
now lets assume that you are okay off the tee,the fairway lines you up to hit your second shot into the right rough.
I can never really trust myself to aim left enough on that second shot( at the trees which appear to be way left of target}especially as I am hitting off that deadly sloping lie.

The green itself is rather intimidating, especaiily to the front pin.
There is the obvious tendency to hit the ball long{to avoid the creek} but thenyou have that awfully fast putt back down to the hole.
To me it is a par five loaded with strategy from tee to green..I love it.

[Ted Kramer]

#4 at Bethpage Black is a 3 shotter and it is one of the most exciting holes I've ever played. And I agree with what many have posted above . . .
the challenging nature of the 2nd shot has a lot to do with its appeal.

-Ted

[Phil_the_Author]

Phil,

I think a blanket statement such as yours is way off, not because there aren't a lot of dull three shot par-5's, there are a huge number of them, rather because the statement lumps holes such as the 4th & 13th holes on Bethpage Black into that mix.

During the 2002 Open, with both holes reachable in two, there was not a single eagle made on them with 2 shots & a putt.

The 4th hole, which will still be played at about 535-540 for the 2009 Open can bereached with a drive that catches the hill in the fairway that will sling the ball down the hill just short of the cross bunker. Tiger placed his drive there on Sunday when he was struggling & his lead in doubt. His play from there? the proper one, to the fairway portion right of the green from where he made... par.

What makes this hole a three-shotter is the fairway elevation changes & the green that slopes away from the player.

The 13th can be stretched out to 590 yards & yet can be reached in 2. On Sunday in the 2009 open, Phil was just short of it & Tiger reached it in 2. Yet for even good players, at that distance it becomes a hole of choices as the cross bunker about 40 yards short of the green is definitely in play. If a lay-up is chosen then the fairway bunker that is about 140 yards from the green comes into play because of how it pushed into the fairway at thatpoint, creating a small landing area after the complex between it & the cross bunker. Choices, accuray, a heroic shot rewarded... This is a pure three-shotter that will challenge everyone from the fair to the fabulous player.

These are just 2 examples of how a three-shot par-5 can be anything but dull. There are many more...

[mike_malone]

Michael,

   Thanks for your response. I find the blind shots at Merion to be a weakness. So often ending up in the rough is the most likely outcome. Once may be okay but four or five times is boring. I prefer the second shot where I can visualize my problems and decide what to do.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

Among other things the drive on Merion's #4 is uniquely complex and the second shot is certainly not easy direction-wise unless one knows that hole extremely well. I've seen more golfers hit what they think is a good second shot only to find their direction was not what it should have been. Merion's #2 gets most everyone's attention due to the close boundary on the right on the drive and second shot.

With the new length on PVGC's #15 a good drive is needed to get the second shot into the right area distance and direction-wise which isn't that easy otherwise the third shot even if shortish can become quite difficult to get on that green where the ball needs to be.

#7 PVGC even with the new increased distance of around 40-50 yards probably is a bit boring for long hitters but it certianly isn't for shorter hitters.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

MM
Ah there lies the difference between us..I admire the use of blind shots as a form of illusion that you have to negotiate..not on every hole, but I think Merion has got it just about right .
The semi blind tee shot on 11 transforms a nothing tee shot into one of anxiety, especially knowing that the fairway has to be hit to negotiate the creek...similar applies to the tee shot on #16.

It is probably down to growing up playing links golf.

[mike_malone]

 Semi-blind on #11 ? You must have better eyes than I do.

    I wonder if the fairways used to be wider on #4-#7-#11.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Yeah you are right nothing semi about it at all........
My guess would be that 11 used to be wider, 4 I think not and seven..you mean there is a fairway on that hole?

[Steve_Lovett]

Kind of a broad generality.  I find #1 at Spyglass to be a three-shot par 5, and not at all dull.  Same with #9 at TPC Sawgrass.  I can probably list about twenty others off the top of my head which are unreachable (for most of us mere mortals anyhow) and extraordinarily non-dull.

[Pete Buczkowski]

The ones that immediately came to my mind are #18 at Yale and #9 at TPC-Sawgrass.  Like them or not, they are definitely not boring!

[Phil Benedict]

The ones that immediately came to my mind are #18 at Yale and #9 at TPC-Sawgrass.  Like them or not, they are definitely not boring!

Pete,

The 9th at Yale is not boring.  It takes 2 really good shots to position yourself for the approach to the green.  I have played it three times and was in my pocket the first two times.  The third time I played it I hit three-wood, three-wood, wedge.  The second three-wood was thrilling because it cleared the ridge in the middle of the fairway (ie reached the area where the fairway comes together).  That was as much fun as reaching a par-5 in two shots.

[Mark Leo]

I would nominate the 8th at LACC as one the best 3 shot par fives I have ever played.  Certainly not dull by any means!!

[Bill Gayne]

Phil,

The bulk of GCA participants determined last week that it was okay to play from whatever tees was the most fun and not what the architect intended. If you're bored with the long par five then just move up to the most forward tee or a length you find interesting. Don't waste your time with rules or silly long holes that aren't fun.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I spent the last week in Palm Springs playing Shadow Ridge (twice) and PGA West Stadium (once).  Both courses had a true 3-shot par 5 of around 590 yards - the 2nd at Shadow Ridge and 11th at PGA West.  This is from the next to back tees.  Driver, layup and wedge to short iron for everybody except Bubba Watson and his ilk.  I think this type of hole is boring.  Just get your drive out there and lay up to some preferred yardage.  Marginal difference between a great drive and ok drive so long as both are in play.

On the other hand, par fives that can be reached in two with a great drive and second shot are thrilling.  Again, I am speaking of the experience from the perspective of a decent amateur player with above average length, not Bubba Watson.


Phil,

Weren't there any architectural features or bunkers in the Driving and second shot LZ ?[/color]

[David_Elvins]

I spent the last week in Palm Springs playing Shadow Ridge (twice) and PGA West Stadium (once).  Both courses had a true 3-shot par 5 of around 590 yards - the 2nd at Shadow Ridge and 11th at PGA West.  This is from the next to back tees.  Driver, layup and wedge to short iron for everybody except Bubba Watson and his ilk.  I think this type of hole is boring.  Just get your drive out there and lay up to some preferred yardage.  Marginal difference between a great drive and ok drive so long as both are in play.

On the other hand, par fives that can be reached in two with a great drive and second shot are thrilling.  Again, I am speaking of the experience from the perspective of a decent amateur player with above average length, not Bubba Watson.

Phil,

Every hole over 300 yards is a 3 shot hole for somone.  If you don't like 3 shot holes just be glad you only get 1 or 2 a round!

[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

The second at Shadow Ridge has bunkers along the left side of the fairway off the tee that need to be avoided.  The right side of is pretty open.  I don't see much of an advantage of playing close to the trouble off the tee because the second is a lay up no matter where you are (unless you're Bubba Watson).  On the second shot there is a lake all down the right side so the inclination is to favor the left side.  The lake is penal rather than strategic since there is no real advantage to be gained by flirting with it in terms of angle.  The last day I played the hole I hit a mediocre drive to the right; mediocre 4-iron into the left rough and a good 7-iron (from 160) to fifteen feet and two-putted.

The 11th at PGA West is altogether a different type of hole.  The landing area for the drive is pretty narrow with fairway bunkers left and right.  Target golf.  For the second shot, there is a huge slope from right to left that comes into play from at least 150 yards in and water on the left maybe 50 yards from the green.  Its really hard to land your layup shot far enough to the right to keep it in the fairway.  I was 280 yards away on my second shot and layed up with a 4-iron which kicked into the grass bunker left of the fairway (into a deep divot, I might add).  In retrospect, I would probably have hit a three-wood from the same position to leave as short an approach as possible, because in all likelihood the ball is going to kick left off the fairway wherever you hit it.

This is probably more information than you bargained for.  BTW, these are both neat but very different courses.  Shadow Ridge has tremendously wide fairways and lots of interesting angles,whereas PGA West is target golf all the way with visual illusion a major theme.  In other words, the target is generally pretty small and the proper line is hard to identify.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Thanks for the info.

They certainly don't sound boring.