[Matt_Ward]

There's been plenty of discussion here on short holes and I have to say that the aforementioned two holes at Bandon Trails still resonate with me -- even after months have passed since my visit.

The 5th is a delicious hole that features a green with waves reminscent of the ocean on a stormy day. The key with the short iron is to gauge with pinpoint certainty how to handle the distance of 140 yards max from the tips. The wind can whip around the hole and the manner by which the green can induce or propel away shots is a joy to behold and only adds to the excitement in playing it time after time.

The 14th is a bit more controversial. I think it's a superb hole. It begs the golfer to go with the bold stroke. I am amused by those who opt away from such a bold stroke and from the incessant whining that playing away towards the right valley doesn't leave a much safer play because of the angle and size of the green. The simple fact is that one needs to play a shot of immense skill and given the nature of today's wedges I find that appropriate.

Given the amount of new courses that have come forward in the last few years I would clearly nominate these two holes for an all-short 18. They are clearly interesting and will certainly raise the blood pressure when playing them.

[Dan Herrmann]

Agreed on 5.

14 was strange to me, but I only played it once.  Then again, I took a 7 on the sucker because the green is so narrow if you're dumb enough (as I was) to approach it from the right.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

You hit the nail squarely on the head -- the bailout area to the right is not the automatic safe position that many make when standing on the tee. This is one short hole -- where the aggressive (but far from wild play) is the better choice in most instances.

[ed_getka]

I really like #14 and what is great is that even if you do take the aggressive line up the left side, the approach shot/pitch/chip is no slam dunk due to the narrowness of the green, and the shelf in the back that actually drops down (I guess you would call it a reverse tier?). #14 BT, #4 BD, #6 PD is a great trifecta of short 4's.
   #5 is a cool green, but I haven't seen the pin anywhere up on top and didn't have enough breathing room in our rounds to hit multiple shots to the various areas, so I don't know how well the upper area of the green plays.

[Tom Jefferson]

Ed.........Thank you for not playing multiple shots into #5; you know how we supers hate that kind of behavior!!!!!

When the cup is cut up front on #5, the right position is the absolute sucker shot...in that case the play is to the left front and slightly deeper into the green, as the putt from there into the right front corner is manageable.
I played two days ago, with the cup cut in the swale, probably the easiest location to play to.  Still not an easy putt down in there, as there are many and varied breaks.

Re: #14...........it continues to impress, even after the 8th or 9th playing.  Two days ago I played, and as always played a three wood to the left side, wanting a shot in from 40-60 yards.  But got too fine, pulled it into the trees, incurred a lost ball penalty, hit my second tee shot to the right safe spot, and was able to spin a wedge onto the back portion of the green.  That hole is memorable and formidable as it takes two perfect shots, and then some, to have a shot at three.

Then there's the pair at Pac....#6 and #16...all about position off the tee and precision playing into the green.

Tom

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  Have you found a reliable shot into #16 at PD? I haven't played it enough times to have worked it out yet.

[Tom Jefferson]

Ed.......nothing in my game is reliable anymore!!!!

What I try to do on 16 is about what occurred yesterday....
there was a south/southwest wind of 1 or so clubs, and I hit a short driver (I carry two) about 225-230 up into the left corner of the fairway (just short and left of the fairway bunker that shows from the tee).  That left me with 105 yards into the wind, which is a knockdown pitching wedge.
The cup was in the back, and as the tendency is for the ball to run through, I try to stop it in the middle, which means landing the ball on the first third.

As you can see, I play that hole very cautiously....as I have had more than my share of 5s and 6s.

As I posted once before, there is an architectural sucking sound on that hole..........balls tend to go right of the green, so I work away from that tendency.

Then on 17, the sucking sound is to the left, into that bunker.
And of course I'm not smart or good enuf to resist that!!
Bogey 4.

Storm blowing in today, after a beautiful stretch of weather.

Tom

[David Sneddon]

Tom,
  Have you found a reliable shot into #16 at PD? I haven't played it enough times to have worked it out yet.

I've been fortunate to par it all 4 times I played.

Used 5iron/PW each time.

The 5 iron puts me about 180-185 out from the tee and the ground is still fairly flat, whereas further on it really starts to roll, and your second shot could be off a downhill/sidehill lie.  

[ed_getka]

David,
  How do you play the PW in? Can you spin it enough to keep it from rolling out the back? I can't and the mogul-type ground preceding the green makes it hard for me to run in the approach consistently.
   I've had my share of pars, I'm trying to unlock the birdie secret.

[David Sneddon]

David,
  How do you play the PW in? Can you spin it enough to keep it from rolling out the back? I can't and the mogul-type ground preceding the green makes it hard for me to run in the approach consistently.
   I've had my share of pars, I'm trying to unlock the birdie secret.

I was able to spin it enough to stop on the green.  IIRC I had about 125-130yds left to centre of the green and the pin was in the middle on two rounds, then front and towards the rear on the other rounds.  I didn't mess with the front pin - played for the middle and happy to two putt from there :-) :-)

I had good club selection advice from my playing partner who has been going there for several years.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - I've said it before on here - while I do consider 16 PD to be a fantastic golf hole for many reasons, I don't get the mystery on the tee shot...

Down wind - blast away with driver - yes you can go through into the bushes on the left, but it's not THAT hard to get it on the green, because the kicks generally go right.  And even if you end up on the bowl short right of the green, that's not that bad... the ground is soft, making for a relatively easy pitch up to the green.  Well, not easy, but not hard enough to fear.

Into wind - hit whatever club you feel like you can get to a comfortable approach distance.  The fairway is pretty wide laying back.

So what's the big mystery?

TH

[ed_getka]

Oh Tom, ye of short memory. You must not remember my driving woes or else you think everyone is like you (the Iron Byron of the GCA set). Anyhow, I know what to do on the drive, it is the approach that I haven't got a good grip on and my inability to spin the ball makes it tough for me to try the aerial approach. I can handle missing my drive right, up near the green, but making birdie from down there is no slam dunk by any means. As to being out in the fairway at a comfortable distance, you must remember that my average trajectory would just clear your head at its apex. So I guess the secret, after further contemplation, is for me to learn how to strike the ball properly. See you Saturday.

[Matt_Ward]

Just for quick reference -- I wonder what those who have played both holes think are the best and weakest pin placements?

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - you have to remember I played the course with my college buddies... and let's just say they are of greatly varying abilities.  So it's not just me I am saying this for... Heck my 12 handicap wild off the tee buddy from Denver knocked it to 3 feet on the hole.

Walked off with a nice birdie, as we sure as hell didn't give him the eagle putt.  

In any case, I don't see the hole as being that wide, or that anything, to make the choices different from what I said before.  Oh it is a very fun tee shot, and wherever that ends up, it is a great approach.

I just don't see it as any mystery of strategy... hell PARTICULARLY if you hit the ball low, you wanna be up as close to the green as you can get.  A low ball isn't going to get enough spin to hold that green unless your name is Tiger Woods - so why not just get as close as you can hopefully staying left, so you can hit a simple running pitch up the left side?

And if you are Tiger, well you're reaching that green with 2iron or 3wood.  

Oh yes, see ya Saturday.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Hey Matt - sorry to go off on that tangent re 16 PD.  

Re 14 BT, I don't see that any pin placement is going to make a big difference - obviously front right would be easier, but it's a very tiny green... do you think pin position matters much there?

Re 5 BT, hmmm... front is terrifying for the shot, back is terrifying to putt... far right would be kinda both...

TH

[ed_getka]

Just goes to show that even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes, which would be the first thing out of my mouth if I drove that green.
    I certainly agree that for my game driving it as close as possible is my best chance. I was more wondering what a real golfer does.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - well that's just it - I gave you the choices as I see them - and I think they work for all golfers real and unreal.  

I don't see how laying back on that hole helps if the wind allows one to get up close to the green, and maybe even on to it.  And given enough wind, it doesn't take a very long shot to reach the putting surface.

I guess it comes down to this:  if you CAN reach the green, you really have little reason not to try - just guard against the left.  Given most people's miss is right, well... I say fire away.

Then for all the rest who can't, I still think getting as close as you can is worth the effort and small amount of risk.

However, if wind precludes even making it to the bowl on the right side that's about 70 yards short of center, then hit something that stays left, and take no chances.  Wind in your face will help the ball stop on the green on the 2nd.

That's my take anyway.  I'd be interested what Tom Jefferson does....

 

I'd say tee shot choices, and approach difficulty, are more confounding and diabolical on PD#6... for whatever reason I've never been mystified by 16, but I think I could play 6 forever and never find the "best" tee shot or approach.

TH

[peter_p]

On the 16th I pitch to the front of the green and pray. It is a crapshoot for me, which might be a good name for the hole.

[Sean Leary]

[quote author=Tom Huckaby
I'd say tee shot choices, and approach difficulty, are more confounding and diabolical on PD#6... for whatever reason I've never been mystified by 16, but I think I could play 6 forever and never find the "best" tee shot or approach.

TH

TH,

Wouldn't the play be the same at PD 6 as it is at BT 14?  The more I think about it , the more the holes are actually a bit similar ( Elevated tee and Green, obvious bailout area which is the sucker play), save for the greens.  I think the play on PD 6 is straight at the hole from the tee box, then bump or fly it in from there, depending on wind direction.  The only major difference is BT 14 is a much harder green to hit since it is so small and slopes away so quickly.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - concur - the two holes are very similar - each can leave terrifying approaches.  

I just do find the tee shot choice a bit more cut and dried on 14 BT than 6 PD.  That is, on 14 BT one says left or perishes; there's not much choice in the matter.  On 6 PD it's not that simple... does want to go as right as one can?  Is a full pitch from the middle or left in one's arsenal of confident shots given that hellacious bunker?  Is it worth trying to go right given lost ball possibilities over there? If one does hit driver or tries to get close to the green, that brings the bunker into play off the tee and one does NOT want to be in there....

Hell to me they are both great golf holes.   I just do find one more heroic and one more strategic.

 

[Mark Arata]

On the 6th at PD, it seems like the best play is to try and carry the bunker on the right, however, every time I have played the hole, it has been dead into the wind, and therefore I had no chance of carrying that bunker. The first time I played the course I hit a 100 yard 4 iron on that green. (i dont know if that tells you how hard the wind was blowing, or how bad a golfer I am......)

I didnt find the 14th at the Trails as bad as everyone here makes it out to be, mainly because I cannot reach the green on my best drive, and so it was a 3 wood, pw and see if you can leave yourself a decent putt. We played it 4 times on the last trip and I think I went 3 pars and a bogey due to a horrible wedge shot over the green.

I think 14 BT and 16 PD mess with the longer hitters heads, which I like, if you have no chance of reaching the green, it makes life a lot easier on these holes, in my opinion. They both make you think a lot on the tee, which is a great compliment to the architect(s)

[Mark Leo]

Driving the 14th at BT , as I've alluded to in earlier threads, is simply not something you can attempt to do with anything but blind luck!. Therein lies the weakness of the hole, which is that there is no option from the tee, other than to hit it left, and try to yell at it loud enough that it stops on the slope for an open approach to the green. If it doesn't stop, it ends up in the collection area right, with a short approach to an almost impossibly thin green.  You can't hit it right to start with because you'll be off the "edge" soon after the ball lands, and why would you want to go right anyway?
Therefore, on a "great" short par 4 you need options for different players.  This hole has none. Everytime I play it, that silly hike through the forest to get to 14 gets longer and sillier!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark:

I'd agree with you on the tee shot choices on #14 BT.  It really is all or nothing - like I said before, you either stay left or you pay dearly.  That's in essence why I prefer #6 PD when it comes to great short par fours.

But I also include 14 BT in that "great" category - because it is so damn unique in presenting likely one of the world's toughest pitch shots, coming in from the right.  That combined with the chance for not just the biggest of hitters to reach the green makes it one damn exciting and fun hole as I see it.  Like I say, I personally do prefer choices... but there is room in the world for the heroic do or die shot as well.  And the fact that death on this hole is delayed - that is, you still have at least a chance from below right - well that makes it cool by me as well.

TH

[Mark Leo]

Tom,
You're right about that second shot!
Maybe we can all come up with a name for this type of hole, because I think you are right about it being unique.  I really like your "Delayed death" analogy!

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark - cool - that can be my contribution to golf terminology - the delayed death hole. We just do need someone more creative to give it a snazzier name.

 

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