Landscape architecture, how has it helped you?

[Ryan Farrow]

I'm assuming many of you have majored in landscape architecture in college. What have you gained from your studies as it relates to golf course design? Some important classes? Or did u need to get out of the classroom and educate yourself?





I am currently a sophomore at Arizona State and I am majoring in landscape architecture. I find myself wondering how important some of my classes are. My first two years of studio classes are in a classroom with about 20 architecture majors and one or two landscape majors. So I’m beginning my design experience working on buildings and not the land that it’s on.  What do I need to do to get the most out of my college education?

[Forrest Richardson]

Ryan — If you are planning on a carreer in golf design...visit courses, read books, and get your instructors to let you study independently. Otherwise, you will spend 90% of your time learning about brick pavers and things you may never need. Also, take environmental psychology (Dr. Sadalla is at ASU) and some business classes focusing on development.

[Ryan Farrow]

I would say that I am a little more than interested in becoming a golf course designer.

As far as courses in Arizona architectural wise do you have some suggestions?
 I Have played Troon North and TPC Scottsdale in 115 degrees but I didn’t have to cut off an arm and a leg to play there. Troon North was quite an experience although I was not a big fan of TPC Scottsdale. It was in pretty bad shape though and at that time I was more worried about my game then scrutinizing the course architecturally.

I am going back home to Pittsburgh this summer and was wondering if working on Oakmont country clubs ground crew would benefit me. I spent last year working at a extremely less prestigious country club. Do u think I should try to pursue summer work at Oakmont? Maybe pick up something cutting those greens six days a week. Is there still prep work going on there for the US Open?

[Yannick Pilon]

Ryan,

Studying in landscape architecture helped me develop a thought process to go from point A to point B, or from a blank site with all of the client's needs in mind to a Master Plan that works well with all the elements perfectly blended to make your client happy.

This may appear to be a simplistic answer, but I think it's pretty much it.  My program didn't have anything to do with golf, and certainly nobody that could properly grade or analyse my work on the subject.  Some classes did help later on (ecology, drainage, grading, etc...) but I mostly had to teach myself most of the stuff as I went.  By the way, I graduated in 1996, and I feel I am still studying golf course architecture every single day I live (and will continue to do so t'il I die, hopefully!).  

Like Forest said, you need to see courses, read everything you can, try stuff and learn from your mistakes.  And believe me, you will make a lot of them along the way!  But they are the best way to learn!

One final advice: don't do all of your work on paper.  What I mean by that is: try to get on construction sites at all costs!  I believe this is where you will learn the most, or at least the quickest.  Drawing a good plan on paper is nice to sell a project, but it does not necessarily make a good course.  Most of the work is done on site.

Good luck.  It's great business to be in, but it is also a tough one.

Yannick

[Forrest Richardson]

Oakmont would be terrific. John Zimmers is the guy to contact.

As far as Arizona courses...see them all. Well, just go see courses. Old ones. New ones. Famous ones. Munis. Take trips and play at those you hear about on this site.

[jg7236]

I don't understand Forrest.  Learning 90% about brick pavers with a Bachelor's Degree in Landscape Architecture?  Uh, just because you don't have a degree in Landscape Architecture, or anything close to that, don't knock it.

[Ryan Farrow]

Maybe he can go back to school. Despite all the high party school rankings its not that bad of an education. Michael Crow is really trying to turn things around. But making the frat houses dry is not the best way. Anyways I’d like to see what kind of cemetery design Mr. Richardson could come up with. Yea my project that is due on Wednesday is a re-design of a cemetery.

[Forrest Richardson]

John G. — I am not knocking a degree in LA. Nor discouraging Ryan — or anyone — from a degree. If you read my post carefully you will discover that I have suggested he find a way to get approval for independent study in golf architecture. And, that he consider augmenting his LA studies with others, such as environmental psychology and business.

The last part of your post, well, it seems a little snotty.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ryan — Cemetery design is something I have been involved with. Twice.

Once for a client who holds a patent on a process of crematory.

Secondly, I assisted Jack Snyder with a design for a small mausoleum at his church. It was after his wife passed away and the church wanted a garden and mausoleum for internment of ashes. It was very simple, with a curved stone wall and niches for urns. The garden was mostly roses. It was for spreading ashes. Carol Schuler, a local landscape architect here in Scottsdale, put the final drawings together for us and worked with the church on plant specifications.

I am sure your design will be more creative. You might consider looking for photos of Ballybunion Old Course in Ireland — the first hole plays partially along/over a cemetery!

[Ian Andrew]

I never learnt anything about brick pavers, obviously I went to the wrong school.

Ryan,

You learn the design process over the entire time your there, it helps avoid staring at all the tasks to do and not knowing where to start. It truly helps you know where to start, what factors you should know up front, how to test yourself along the way, an how to get your ideas across. That's pretty damned useful.

You also learn about plant material, writing contracts, construction (although not golf - but it is useful), planning, soils, landscape history (the english landscapes are a great model for golf courses), computer aided design, art, sculpture, etc. There all helpfull in abigger picture

Forrest is right, the key is taking all your electives and indipendent studies in areas that benefit the idea of becoming a golf designer.

Now the truth is you will not be ready to design a golf course after getting a degree in Landscape Architecture - it is stepping stone onto what you really need - which is a place with a construction firm (very useful-but a harder route to an office if that's where your aim is), a design builder would be more ideal (best place to learn), or a golf architects office (your where you want to be - but will likely do production work more than apprenticing).

Hope this helps.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ian, I assume when you say, "...it is a stepping stone onto what you really need..." that you actually meant to say "...it is a path of brick pavers onto what you really need..."

[jg7236]

Forrest, I wasn't trying to be snotty by any means.  I just thought you were knocking LA degrees.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am surprised no one else mentioned that you learn grading and drainage!  Number one skill required for gca's.  As mentioned, a lot of the other technical stuff applies directly to most golf design firms.

I agree you learn the design process.  Doesn't matter how much a site varies, the process of getting to the solution should be about the same.

I also agree you need to tailor that degree, focusing on stuff important to gca. If you can take turf electives, reading aerial photographs, surveying, etc. you will be so much better off.  And don't blow off business practice, spec writing, etc. they will come in handy.

Create an independent study course in golf courses, doing a project or two. Thats what most aspiring gca students do.

[Ryan Farrow]

Forrest I am shocked that you have some cemetery building experience. Our project also called for an 8' X 8’ X 176’ mausoleum. They made it a point to make us cut and fill a certain amount of dirt. I see how they are introducing new techniques to each project. One thing this semester our teacher is stressing the importance of following a conceptual framework. So just learning about the importance of making an architectural move to back up your overall scheme is something new. Last semester our teachers only cared about making nice projects with nice spaces. They really put no emphasis on why you did things. I guess that’s a good thing, going through a different teacher every year and seeing their different perspectives.  

I would love to take a turf grass class of two but ASU requires acceptance into their PGM program. I guess the closest ill get to that is geology, we actually learned about soil for all of 5 minutes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ryan,

I, too have designed some cemetaries in my day. Just like subdivisions but the lots are smaller......and the clubhouse is the mausoleum!

[Ryan Farrow]

I would love to see the waterfalls in a Fazio cemetery. I can see this as the next big thing. Don’t have a ton of golf courses to design? Go for cemeteries.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ryan,

Like my views on golf course design, where I espouse designing them for those who use them, I don't really think the, uh, customers, appreciate such things, and I would leave them out.

[Ryan Farrow]

Since most of you guys wanted to design golf courses did u take your test to become licensed landscape architects? Is that mandatory? Or do you just need someone in your office that is. I was talking to one of my friends whose dad is a big developer in Utah and his dad choose an architect for the golf course, landscape architects, engineers etc. for the development. Could you clarify what kind of certification if any you need to design a golf course?

[Forrest Richardson]

Ryan — You might check into U of A to see if a course there might be transferrable to ASU. U of A has some decent turfgrass classes.

As for the requitements for designing golf courses...all 50 states, except Nevada, have no requirements. Nevada has instigated a requirement that a golf course architect, such as an ASGCA member, work with a licensed LA. It is a weird law. Quite ill-advised. Why? Because more bad golf courses have been designed/planned by LA's and civil engineers without a qualified golf course architect involved than the other way around.

Of course, if a project has civil or structural issues, then appropriate professionals need to be brought into the process.

[Ryan Farrow]

I find it very interesting that such a large scale project such as a golf course requires no certification. But that backyard waterfall or Wallgreens parking lot landscape needs a licensed architect.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ryan — I think you will find that most golf course projects have a civil engineer, geotech consultant and perhaps a LA. But...the role (routing, shaping, etc.) of designing the golf course is best left to a golf course architect.

Look up Snyder v. State of Arizona. The Arizona Supreme Court ruled that "golf course architecture represents such a specialized part of the built environment that it cannot be said that it is practicing 'landscape architecture', but rather, a unique profession that does not fall within licensed technical professions." (paraphrased)

[Bruce Katona]

Ryan: My LA degree is from a school back East.  Here's what I took from my academic classes to apply to work: Grading and Drainage (always remember water runs downhill unless pumped), Construction Detailing ( it doen't matter what you detail, but learning the process of how to explain to someone in the field how to construct something), Soil Science, Remote Imaging (what you call GIS now), business (economics, management, etc.) and spatial design (how to design and manipulate exterior spaces).  What is a golf hole - nothing more than a series of exterior rooms your ball is played through.  The space in manipulated in three dimensions to add challenge to the game.

I you let me add my two cents: If you're really interested in gca as a profession, apply to intern at a number of practices this summer.  It may sound crazy to work for free, but, who would ever turn down reliable free help.  You will get tremendous experience and see if you actually like what you are proposing to spend your life doing.

Best of luck . if I can do anything further, let me know.

[Ryan Farrow]

First off I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. Everyday I find myself learning more and more.

As far as an internship, I applied for Tom Doak’s extravaganza (still waiting to hear back). So if that does not work out I think I am spending one last summer back in Pittsburgh with my family and hopefully work at Oakmont CC. The summer after my junior year is when I will be looking to get an internship. I would also have no problem working for free. The experience I would gain is far more valuable than any dollar amount. That said, I am surrounded by many design offices In the Phoenix area and would gladly help out wherever needed.

[David Druzisky]

Ryan,

You have a lot of good advice here so far.  It could be very difficult to understand how to get into the profession without a little input.

LA is a great foundation.  It should be training you in design theory development - basically how to go mentally about the design process.  Much like lawyers need to be trained to think a certain way, so do creative types.  We work in many layers upon layers of issues and disciplines and the eduction you are getting will help you organize the process.  This may be where tour players are weakest.

With that in mind though, looking back on my U of AZ (yes I am a wildcat) years the time I learned the most was my summers.  Two different things I did durring that time were very important to those early and formative years.

First, I was fortunate enough to land a couple great early intern/summer jobs in Golf design firms.  Jones Jr. and Bob Cupp.  Those brief but enjoyable summers I learned a lot and owe them much.  I especially learned a lot about grading - which you will find is key to our profession.  I think I did  about 3 projects worth of cut and fill calculations one summer so boy did I learn to read contours!  In general I think Golf Course Designers can read and draw contours in circles around most others.

Other summers I spent in the field on golf construction crews. You learn ,more here than any other time.  At the point you are at, this woud be highly recommended for several years after graduating at least.  Just remember, it is better to be in the ditch on a good project than doing something easy on a bad project. As you mature in the business you will need to know what goes into what you are designing and requesting of the contractor.  Field experience is where you learn most of this.

As others have said here, while at school it would be good to take as many classes on turf management and the related ag stuff.  Soils is a big one.  We all learn a bunch of plants in LA but golf projects are all over the place and the trees and plants we use from one job to the next are completely different.

The one thing I would do differently would probably be to take off after completing school and go over to Scotland/Ireland/England and just enrich myself by working in golf doing whatever I could as I traveled around and experienced as many of the great old courses as possible.  Do not be in a hurry.

As for Pittsburgh, there are several courses that would be a good gig.  Fox Chapel just north of Oakmont is great.  Dave Carson is the Superintendent there.  New Castle CC is a Tillinghast course up in New Castle. Joe Giardina is the Superintendent there.

Good Luck.

[David_Tepper]

Ryan -

Have you read John Strawn's book, "Driving the Green: The Making of a Golf Course?"  It is a soup-to-nuts account of how a golf course in Florida was conceived, designed and built. You can buy a used copy on amazon.com for less than $3.

I am by no means a GCA and have never been involved in any aspect of creating a golf course, so I cannot vouch for the authenticity of what is in the book.  Assuming it is reasonably representative of "the making of a golf course," it might provide you with a good perspective of the road ahead.

DT  

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