Work at Philadelphia CC - Centennial (Fazio)

[Bill Shotzbarger]

On Wednesday the St. Joe's Prep golf team began its season with tryouts at our home course, the Centennial 9 at Philly Country in Gladwyne, Pa. I was excited to see that changes were being made to the somewhat boring 9 that pales in comparison to the Spring/Mill course (Flynn) that almost everyone should know about.

The first thing noticed is that every bunker on the course is being redone. My coach John Finegan, son of the author James, says that a new drainage system will be put into place to improve these bunkers. In addition, many trees are being removed, mostly between holes 1/9/2/3 that run parallel to each other. Also, a huge tree that used to sit to the right of the 3rd green has been chopped down.

The 4th hole is a short 5 that plays much harder than it should. The hole doglegs right and has a bunker to the right of the fairway that may be carried to leave a long iron approach. This bunker has been reshaped and enlarged to jut into the fairway even more. This forces the player to play more to the left, leaving a longer shot to the green and the threat of OB left.

A new greenside bunker was placed to the left of the 7th green, a par 4 that doglegs left. I don't think this will be that great of a challenge because the prevailing wind usually sends balls into the bunker that is short and right of the big green.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Bill,

I am saddened that The Prep golf team is now playing all their matches at Main Line stalwart Philly CC. In my day we toughed it out at Cobbs Creek and Overbrook. However, you tell Mr Finnegan that when he has The Prep golf team reunion at Pine Valley, I 'll be there.  

Mike Sweeney
'80 St Joe's Prep Golf Team Member

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

It is a shame that the Club is not blowing that nine up and starting all over again.  It is such a poor collection of holes with 4,6 and the par 3 8th being the only holes above mediocre to poor.  The parallel holes are about as bad as it gets at a first class club.  While there were some constraints to design, Fazio failed here.

There was a slim chance that the routing was going to change dramatically but the gun club stuck to their guns (I guess they are apt to do so) and a brilliant layout by Hanse and Kittleman was stymied.  They were going to use the chasm between the seventeenth fairway and sixteen in fascinating ways.  

I think a redesign of the present 9 would have been welcome a mere 10 years later, but very expensive and so unlikely.  Oh well, the Spring Mill 18 is a wonderful course which makes the Centennial 9 suffer even more in the comparison.

[Mike_Cirba]

Does anyone actually play the Centennial nine on purpose?  The last time I was there the nine was completely empty.  

it's not like it's a fair comparision, or that the land is particularly interesting, but the course is so blase as to be essentially lifeless.

[wsmorrison]

It is definitely used primarily as a relief course and not a course that gets much dedicated play except by beginners and juniors.  It ain't no C-9!

[Craig_Rokke]

Was the Centenial nine originally done by Fazio, or is he just modifying it (or both?)?

Sounds like Wayne thinks that the Hanse proposal was quite good. How come the current 9 hole layout was such a big swing-and-a-miss?

[wsmorrison]

Yes Craig, it was designed by Tom Fazio (or his studio) and completed in 1990 or 1991.

"How come the current 9 hole layout was such a big swing-and-a-miss?"

The site was not very good, but the design is still inferior to whatever potential existed.  The parallel holes could have been differentiated more.  

[Kyle Harris]

It is definitely used primarily as a relief course and not a course that gets much dedicated play except by beginners and juniors.  It ain't no C-9!

Yeah, all you'd have to do would be to drop the "beginners and juniors" from that sentence to make it like it.  

[John Gosselin]

I remember hearing rumors that there was an influential, overbearing member involved in the project during the design process and Fazio got frustrated and walked away. I don't know if this is true, but is what eventually got built some sort of compromised design? Who managed the construction and made the daily important decisions which influenced what the end product will play like, look like, and how it can be maintained? Could Hanse do a better job under the same circumstances, resources, and restrictions on land?

[wsmorrison]

John,

I don't know about the process and if Fazio walked away.  I never heard that story, but it might be true.  I know there was a grander scheme, of 18 holes but land was not made available and compromises were made.

You ask if Hanse could have done a better job under the same circumstances.  I say yes, very easily; even with the same routing.  The parallel holes would have been done in more of a differentiated way and you wouldn't feel that you were playing nearly identical holes.  

Heck, I think I could have done a better job than Fazio in coming up with concepts and this was 15 years ago.  If any of us armchair architects worked with a talented shaper I think it would have been much better.  I know that is a bold statement but I think it is true.  The routing may be improved upon, I'd have to think about that some more and walk the ground with a more studied approach, but the intra-hole designs could have been done far better within the existing routing.

Re-reading this, it sure comes across as boastful, but I challenge anyone to look at that work and not see a number of ways to improve it.  I like three of the holes, but that's a small percentage that he got marginally right.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

You ask if Hanse could have done a better job under the same circumstances.  I say yes, very easily; even with the same routing.  The parallel holes would have been done in more of a differentiated way and you wouldn't feel that you were playing nearly identical holes.  

Heck, I think I could have done a better job than Fazio in coming up with concepts and this was 15 years ago.  If any of us armchair architects worked with a talented shaper I think it would have been much better.  I know that is a bold statement but I think it is true.  The routing may be improved upon, I'd have to think about that some more and walk the ground with a more studied approach, but the intra-hole designs could have been done far better within the existing routing.

Re-reading this, it sure comes across as boastful, but I challenge anyone to look at that work and not see a number of ways to improve it.  I like three of the holes, but that's a small percentage that he got marginally right.

Wayne-

  Do you have any pictures or resources where we could see Hanse/Kittleman's plans for the Centennial Nine and compare/contrast them to what lies in the ground currently?  

[John Gosselin]

Knowing what should be done or could be done is the easy part. Getting it done is another story. That is why I asked "under the same set of circumstances" could Hanse have done a better job? Would Hanse compromise his design just to get the work? Is this nine a result of an armchair architect in the first place?  

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

Let me clarify.  Hanse and Kittleman's plan is for a redesign of the current course using areas not currently utilized for golf.  The plan I saw required a relocation of the shooting range.  The shooters did not want to move so the plan was stymied.

John,

Not knowing what the exact circumstances were makes it hard to say.  I guess that is your point  

However, given the land contstraints alone, I think a better course could have gotten done at least under this circumstance.  I don't know who actually did the work on that site, but the responsibility is that of the man whose name is on the project.  Purely analyzing the work in situ, I would say the job was not done as well as it could have been.

This is not a blanket indictment against Fazio.  I've seen some of his original design work that I like.  But this is not one of them.  Maybe budget was a constraint and the course is acceptable based on constraints I am not aware of.  John, you make an excellent point that the reality of the situation may have dictated the direction of the project in ways that need to be considered. So I should amend my criticism to say that it is under narrow circumstances that I criticize.  But given that there has been serious consideration to make substantial changes 15 years later, it is evident that the Centennial nine does not meet current standards with some segments of the club.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Mike,

Nice to meet you. The Centennial is a blessing and a burden for us. The good thing is that we pretty much own it during the spring. We play every afternoon from 3-5 and rarely see any members, except those playing 14 and 15 on the real course. There's no doubt that we get more course time than any other team in our league, second is LaSalle at Whitemarsh. The Club allows us all of this playing time and access to the practice hole that runs to the left of 14 all for two or three hours worth of filling divots with dirt on either course. We even get to play the Mill nine once or twice a year on a Monday.

The burden is that you have to see holes like 14, 15, 16, 17 and know what you're missing. 17 is all world, and every year the whole team goes out to the spot where Nelson holed the one iron and tries to replicate the shot.

It'd be very interesting to see the Hanse plans. Can the plan be changed a little bit to please the shooters? I know it's a country club that offers many sports, but Golf > Trap Shooting, at least in our opinion.  

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

Do you know who designed the practice hole to the left of the 14th on the Spring Mill course? A.W. Tillinghast!  So at least your team practices on a classic era architect's work.

I'm sorry if I came down so hard on the Centennial nine.  It would offer the club better value if it attracted more golfers.  It is underused given the size of the club membership and would be a welcome relief to the celebrated Spring Mill course.  A more compelling design is almost a necessity for the club.  I hope whatever changes are made results in more play.

[Craig_Rokke]

Gun club? How many courses even have "gun clubs" anymore?

[John Gosselin]

From my own experience, and in my humble opinion, I think projects related to architecture at equity private clubs, more often than not, tend to be a series of compromises. Great ideas and visions get diluted and bastardized by politics and egos as the project gets navigated through the approval process. Projects don't turn out like they should and someone is to blame. It is usually the paid professional.





 

[wsmorrison]

Nicely summarized, John.  See you tomorrow, it should be fun.

[Craig_Rokke]

As I am sometimes prone to do with clubs that stir up my interest on GCA, I did a search, and on Ebay, a postcard for
"Philadelphia Manheim CC" came up. I have never heard of this club, nor can I find it in any of my materials. Manheim
is located in Lancaster County, a ways from Phila CC. Anyone familiar with this apparently NLE club, and any relationship it may or may not have had with Phila CC?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wayne;

  Did you know of the goals of the Greens/Golf Committees when the Centennial Nine was built?  

  Does the club have a mission statement/plan for each of its golf courses?  (I am taking the Spring/Mill nines for one course and the Centennial for a separate course).  

The reason I am asking is that I recall well from Congressional; the Board and Greens Committees had clearly defined objectives for each of the courses, complete with a mission statement for each course.  

  With such objectives, the club also specified that the architect, specifically Rees Jones (Blue Course) and Arthur Hills (Gold Course) was retained as consultant to return yearly to suggest improvements/enhancements to the course.  

  Does Philadelphia CC have the same sort of objectives for their courses?