O/T: Anyone else having trouble getting 3 wood airborne?

[Brian Noser]

MWP,

That new Axis shaft is pretty sweet as well, it was close to knocking the Speeder 757 out of my bag. I hit Many different drivers with that shaft and really liked it.

GB

As far as switching heads you could do that but if there is a head you really like you may just be able to switch the shaft and make it work.  it is all about maximizing all the items MWP Stated

[Brian Noser]

GB,

Just FYI there really is no standard on club heads either. A 9.5 is not a 9.5* for every company some are 11* some are 12*it is all different.  Even irons are different so it all jsut depends on what works for you. One companys 7 iron is lofted like a 6.

[Garland Bayley]

GB,

Just FYI there really is no standard on club heads either. A 9.5 is not a 9.5* for every company some are 11* some are 12*it is all different.  Even irons are different so it all jsut depends on what works for you. One companys 7 iron is lofted like a 6.

As I wrote before, the loft is easily measured. How do you measure the stiffness of a shaft and its "kick point"? For that matter, there is no such thing as a "kick" point. The shaft does not kick the ball. That is just more marketing hooey.

[Garland Bayley]

All this hooey and technology nonsense just convinces me that nobody can hit  a 3 wood worth a crap, and unless you really like making double bogey from the center of the fairway on a 565 yard+ par 5 after a 300 yard drive, the only logical answer is to not have the 3 wood in your bag in the first place, hit a hybrid into the front bunker and hope you get up and down (with the extra degree wedge that you have because you dumped the 3 wood !! ) - because you're too damn far away from the green to give it a go in the first place unless you like 7s.

7 is great in craps.  It sucks on par 5s.  And the cause of more 7s that I can fathom is the 3 wood.

The hooey is in the label on the club. There is no "standard" 3 wood any more. If you say no one can hit a 13 degree fairway wood worth a crap, you make more sense.

However, I would maintain that many people can hit 16 degree fairway woods rather well.

[A.G._Crockett]

GB,

Just FYI there really is no standard on club heads either. A 9.5 is not a 9.5* for every company some are 11* some are 12*it is all different.  Even irons are different so it all jsut depends on what works for you. One companys 7 iron is lofted like a 6.

As I wrote before, the loft is easily measured. How do you measure the stiffness of a shaft and its "kick point"? For that matter, there is no such thing as a "kick" point. The shaft does not kick the ball. That is just more marketing hooey.

Garland,
You are, of course, correct that little if anything in golf equipment is standard, be it the meaning of an S shaft or the effective loft of a clubhead with the number 3 on it.

You are, however, incorrect about shafts.  Most top of the line drivers now come in several different shaft options, simply because the shafts ARE different.  Take each of the three options for the Ping G5 and hit the same loft on the launch monitor or on the golf course; your results will vary widely, which is why the manufacturer offers the options in the first place.  You surely don't mean to claim that the stock shaft that came in a Callaway Big Bertha was the equal of the Graffalloy Prolite that we all bought, do you?  You surely don't mean to claim that the shaft in a $49.99 AirBear from Sports Authority is comparable to the Tour version shafts that aren't even available to the public, do you?

There are different golfers with different swings, so there are different shafts with different playing characteristics, even in steel.  There always have been, even before graphite was widely used.  The fact that there is no industry standard is completely irrelevant; various shafts perform differently with the same clubhead, and to argue otherwise would be silly.  I'm quite certain that you could tell the difference between the VS Proto, the UST V2, the Graffalloy Prolaunch, and the Aldila NV, and I am quite certain that one of them would suit you better than the other three.  I know that you know this, so I assume that you are just being a bit contrary on the subject for some reason.

I've got a 14* Ping 3 wood with a V2 HL shaft that I can hit quite nicely off the deck if the lie is not too tight.  I couldn't hit it at all off the ground with the original VS Proto shaft, and that's a fact.  I hit it farther than I do my Ping 4 wood (17*) with the exact same shaft.  Sorry, but it's true. Proper equipment makes a difference, and the shaft is the key to proper equipment.  

Now let's speak no more of this...

[Tom Huckaby]

All this hooey and technology nonsense just convinces me that nobody can hit  a 3 wood worth a crap, and unless you really like making double bogey from the center of the fairway on a 565 yard+ par 5 after a 300 yard drive, the only logical answer is to not have the 3 wood in your bag in the first place, hit a hybrid into the front bunker and hope you get up and down (with the extra degree wedge that you have because you dumped the 3 wood !! ) - because you're too damn far away from the green to give it a go in the first place unless you like 7s.

7 is great in craps.  It sucks on par 5s.  And the cause of more 7s that I can fathom is the 3 wood.

Again, I would agree with that for you big hitters.

But I hit my 3wood wonderfully, and use it all the time.  I rather need to - it's not always on par fives.  And on most par fives, it's needed not to try and reach in two, but to get me into a good position for my third shot.

I would venture to say I am more indicative of the general population than you blast-boys, as well.  

Not that I wouldn't love to trade places, mind you.  

[Jim Franklin]

I love my 3wood and, as long as I don't over swing, it is great on par 5s. I use it on mid-length par 4s more than anything so I could not imagine dropping from my bag. I did drop my 57 and 61 degree wedges and put in just a 58 degree and added my 3 iron.

[Steve Hyden]

I always thought the ball sat up better on Florida bermuda than on our great white north bent fairways.  And, I always thought that FL fairways were soft.

The above is true in the summer but in winter fairways can get very tight.  I just played an FSGA event where the fairways were tighter than the greens.  Short of buying new tools, and hybrids will certainly help you get the ball up, any combination of shut clubface and even a hint of an over the top action will cause a low ball flight.  An inside attack adds effective loft.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
You are, of course, correct that little if anything in golf equipment is standard, be it the meaning of an S shaft or the effective loft of a clubhead with the number 3 on it.

You are, however, incorrect about shafts.  Most top of the line drivers now come in several different shaft options, simply because the shafts ARE different.  Take each of the three options for the Ping G5 and hit the same loft on the launch monitor or on the golf course; your results will vary widely, which is why the manufacturer offers the options in the first place.  

Where am I incorrect about shafts? Where did I say they were all the same? Where did I dispute that results would vary? The launch monitor can easily show the difference. However, if you were to take the clubs to the range and just hit balls, how well would you be able to see the difference? I haven't done this, but what I have read from Tom Wishon leads me to believe you would have a very difficult time discerning the difference.

You surely don't mean to claim that the stock shaft that came in a Callaway Big Bertha was the equal of the Graffalloy Prolite that we all bought, do you?  You surely don't mean to claim that the shaft in a $49.99 AirBear from Sports Authority is comparable to the Tour version shafts that aren't even available to the public, do you?

There are different golfers with different swings, so there are different shafts with different playing characteristics, even in steel.  There always have been, even before graphite was widely used.  The fact that there is no industry standard is completely irrelevant; various shafts perform differently with the same clubhead, and to argue otherwise would be silly.  I'm quite certain that you could tell the difference between the VS Proto, the UST V2, the Graffalloy Prolaunch, and the Aldila NV, and I am quite certain that one of them would suit you better than the other three.  I know that you know this, so I assume that you are just being a bit contrary on the subject for some reason.

I've got a 14* Ping 3 wood with a V2 HL shaft that I can hit quite nicely off the deck if the lie is not too tight.  I couldn't hit it at all off the ground with the original VS Proto shaft, and that's a fact.  I hit it farther than I do my Ping 4 wood (17*) with the exact same shaft.  Sorry, but it's true. Proper equipment makes a difference, and the shaft is the key to proper equipment.  

Now let's speak no more of this...

We would "speak no more of this" if you would pay attention to what I wrote. Cary can't get his three wood airborne. If Cary was fitted for his clubs, then the shaft should be appropriate for his game. I can guarantee that if he removes the 3 wood head from the club and puts the 4 or 5 wood head from the same manufacturer on the club, it would immediately improve his results. Tom Wishon, quoted above says this should not raise the swingweight more than half a point. Therefore, since maybe only Tiger Woods could sense that swingweight change, Cary should be fine with that. Now I ask you, what shaft should Cary change to that you can guarantee the same result? Picking the shaft is more like voodoo. Sure, you could go through several and find the best one, but would it give the improvement that the simple prescription of changing the head would?

[A.G._Crockett]

Garland,
The simple answer is yes, you CAN get a better result with a different shaft than with a more lofted head.  It may cost time and money, but it is very, very possible.  In fact, it is done every day.  

I haven't read the particular piece by Wishon that you keep referencing, but it is inarguable that a 4 wood will be easier to get airborne than a 3 wood, all other things equal, just as a 9 iron is easier to get airborne than a 5 iron.  If the goal is more distance through higher ball flight ALONE, then make the head switch and be done with it.  However, if MAXIMUM distance is the goal, then abandoning the 3 wood for a 4 or 5 wood makes no more sense than putting a driver-length shaft into a lob wedge head; it would go really high, but not nearly as far as one might hope.

The reason is that the more lofted head increases backspin, while the shaft change can increase launch angle with low spin and yield better overall distance because of more roll.  OVERALL distance is a combination of carry and roll, of course, and well-hit 3 woods go farther than well-hit 4 or 5 woods, don't they?  

The trick that was being asked about in the first place what how to get a 14* 3 wood airborne more easily; the proper shaft is the best way.  A good clubfitter would make short work of this, providing the player is skilled enough to hit woods off the ground in the first place, which I believe Carey L. is.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The reason is that the more lofted head increases backspin, while the shaft change can increase launch angle with low spin and yield better overall distance because of more roll.  OVERALL distance is a combination of carry and roll, of course, and well-hit 3 woods go farther than well-hit 4 or 5 woods, don't they?  
...

Say what? The shaft is going to raise the effective loft of the club AND maintain the low spin? Back to physics class for you!
 

[Ken Moum]

I've got a 14* Ping 3 wood with a V2 HL shaft that I can hit quite nicely off the deck if the lie is not too tight.  I couldn't hit it at all off the ground with the original VS Proto shaft, and that's a fact.  I hit it farther than I do my Ping 4 wood (17*) with the exact same shaft.

Based on my recent measurements of Ping fairway woods, I'd say there's a better than 90% probability that you have woods with 16* and 19* of loft.

And if you do, then everything you just said makes perfect sense.

Of course, you could also be one those guys with 120-mph clubhead speed.

K

[A.G._Crockett]

I've got a 14* Ping 3 wood with a V2 HL shaft that I can hit quite nicely off the deck if the lie is not too tight.  I couldn't hit it at all off the ground with the original VS Proto shaft, and that's a fact.  I hit it farther than I do my Ping 4 wood (17*) with the exact same shaft.

Based on my recent measurements of Ping fairway woods, I'd say there's a better than 90% probability that you have woods with 16* and 19* of loft.

And if you do, then everything you just said makes perfect sense.

Of course, you could also be one those guys with 120-mph clubhead speed.

K

Which Pings did you measure?  My understanding is that in the G5's and Raptures, they are using true lofts, as opposed to the "effective" lofts they put on the TISI's and so forth up through the G2's.  Could be mistaken.

I have a Ping Rapture 3 wood, marked as 14*, which I think is pretty close, almost certainly less than 16*.  I have a Nike 4 wood marked as 17*, which might actually be more like 18/19*.  I'm almost 55 yrs. old, and my swing speed is below 100 mph.

But I have the correct shaft in both clubs, AND in my 12* driver.  A high launch with low spin is the way to go, and the shaft is the key to that.

[JSlonis]

Cary,

Do yourself a favor and check these fairway woods out.  Adams fairway woods are very popular on the Pro Tours.  The RPM low profile tour head is an excellent choice as is the new BUL Fairway wood.  They are very versatile and are easy to elevate from the fairway.

[Ken Moum]

Which Pings did you measure?  My understanding is that in the G5's and Raptures, they are using true lofts, as opposed to the "effective" lofts they put on the TISI's and so forth up through the G2's.  Could be mistaken.

I have a Ping Rapture 3 wood, marked as 14*, which I think is pretty close, almost certainly less than 16*.

I stick a loft gauge on most everything I get a chance to . I hit a Rapture a month or so ago, but didn't have a gauge along.

The Tisi and Tecs were all weak. But I think the G2s were as well. I don't recall having my hands on a G5, so it could be that they are closer.

Mind you, I don't consider this a negative, except that it makes people hate component clubs because they are much more likely to have accurate lofts.

My new Hibore (2006 model) driver says it is 11.5, and it measures 14* on the button, and it's got a closed face, so it plays at about 15.5*. I can't hit it worth a lick, so it's loft is irrelevant, I guess.

K

[Steve Lang]

 

Hoooey on Hooey.. blah blah blah on disregarding shaft terminology like kick-point.. which while its only a matter of inches difference where a shaft flexes during one's 400 millisecond swing, its something that can be sensed or felt..

If one is saying street smarts trumps book smarts then who cares what you read!  Its all propaganda..

As mentioned, I play a fairway wood.. my spoon.. its marked 12 degrees, I look, i aim, I hit it, it goes.  to me airborne is about 20-25 feet with that club..

My first clubfitter gave me a bag of clubs, about a half dozen 3, 5, 7, & 9 irons each, with little random number codes.. said go hit em and report back.. he then matched things across the set, filling in the gaps per experience.

My second clubfitter had me on the launch monitor for an hour, getting shaft length, then flex, then weight preferences sorted out.  Built some "blind test" clubs to try them out.. came back and went heavier.. adjusted lies and lofts.. bingo!

only disconnect to day is that while modern analyzers can measure shaft flex over shaft distance, this is not yet widely tranlatable into best results for someone without putting it into play.. so unfortunately folks adapt to what they have versus getting what they need..

if you buy off the rack, you're playing craps..

[Kalen Braley]

Where am I incorrect about shafts? Where did I say they were all the same? Where did I dispute that results would vary?

Quote from Garland:

"Ryan,

Anyone who has had success in the past with a 13 degree 3 wood isn't a bad indian. As I recall Cary is like a 3 handicap. My guess is he is simply getting older and his swing speed is slowing down. IMHO increased loft is the way. IMHO shaft flex is the biggest bunch of hooey around. If they make all kind of flexes, they can tell you your flex is wrong and sell you a different flex. It's all marketing! The simplest way to increase effective loft is to get a club head with higher loft. Why try a dozen shafts to get the same effect. NOTE: The loft on the club is easily measured and verified, the flex on the shaft is not! There is no standard of shaft flexes either. Hooey Hooey Hooey!

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

If you are trying to make a point, I don't get what it is. Care to clarify?