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Paul_Turner

10 years of World Rankings
« on: November 23, 2002, 02:01:54 PM »
'ere they are:  

http://www.golf.be/ld/golf.nsf/PV/030102EN?opendocument


I found these searching for Royal Zoute.  

In the last GW Top 100 GB&I edition, Nick Faldo makes the ridiculous assertion that British and Irish clubs need to start modernising like their American counterparts, because they are slipping down the rankings.  

Well as you can see from the above link, Faldo was talking rubbish, and is probably best ignored. (He seems to fail to appreciate the many expensive restorations at top US clubs-  needed to reverse these "wonderful" modernisation schemes.)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2002, 04:42:56 PM »
Paul Turner:

I've been worried for some time about American influence on golf in the UK & Ireland. It's amazing that Nick Faldo doesn't see that this influence is best kept at bay.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2002, 01:21:56 AM »
Paul (and Tim)

I've just re-read Faldo's article (wish I knew how to find a link for it, but I don't think that GW has an internet site--talk about something that needs to be modernized!).

You are right about the general mistake he made regarding the FACTS about changes in rankings, but I think you misinterpret what he said.  What he did say was, in effect:

1.  technology is taking away the challenge of some older courses for the accomplished player (he mentioned that "even an old man like me was driving it 50 yards past all the bunkers (at Wentworth)."
2.  Americans tend to be better at tweaking their courses "...adding a bunker here, putting a tee in there.."  than the Brits.

In the rest of the piece he has some very thoughtful things to say about:

--why the Brits have never been able to produce great parkland courses
--the fact that "modern" designers may not necessarily not have the talent of the golden oldies, but are rather "discouraged from employing (their talents)" by developers.
--the practical reasons for "pot" bunkering on old courses (need to stop sand from blowing blowing away!)

I always find Faldo's stuff to be thoughtful and provocative.  Even if he does use a ghostwriter, he has to approve the text, and to me, he really does "get it", as I posited on a thread here many, many moons ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lester_Bernham

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2002, 03:04:25 AM »
Guys
I posted the Faldo article on this site (I think its on page 15 at the moment) .

I also enjoy Faldo's columns in Golf World and they always comes across as honest and thought provoking to me .

I have also played two of Mr Faldos designs and loved both.

I dont understand why he is constantly slated on this site .

Lester
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2002, 05:43:45 AM »
If Nick believes what he wrote in his essay in Paul Daley's "The Sandbelt" he most certainly gets it, at least on paper. Futhermore Faldo was to have collaborated on a project with one of GCA's favorite sons and from all accounts I have heard he got it then too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2002, 06:15:19 AM »
Rich

I don't agree with Faldo on point 2.  He needs to give some examples. (Augusta?)  
I doubt he was blasting by every bunker at Wentworth East, they aren't placed that formulaicly.

I don't think he throws any light on the parkland issue in the UK (and I think our parkland courses are considerably better than he implies).  

He criticises American style courses and their bunkering, when his own Chart Hills is the very embodiment of this.  And then he states that the 2 parkland courses from the Isles he likes are Mount Juliet and Loch Lomond; again, strongly American style courses ???  So what's his point?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2002, 07:31:30 AM »
Paul et. al.

I'm copying below the Faldo article, as Les posted previously, for refrence.

You are right about point#2 in that TOC, Muirfield and Troon amongst others have done a lot of tweaking to their courses (partrciularly in terms of new tees).   I'm in the Augusta is better today than in MacKenzie's day, so I'd be happy for him to use it as a US example ;)

In terms of "parkland" course, I think he is exlcuding heathland (e.g. Woodhall Spa, Sunningdale, etc.)  So, maybe the Loch Lomond, Mount Juliet assessment isn't that far off.  Refreshingly honest, I think for him to exclude Chart Hills (can you see Gary Player doing that?).  I don't see him knocking US course at all, in fact he's basically saying that the "goldent age" which prduced Winged Foot, Bethpage, etc. passed the UK by, at least in terms of parkland courses.  The reason of different land ownership patterns and land use regualtions was and is a good one, IMHO.

His points are that:

1.  Some older courses in Britain (e.g. Wentworth East) are beocming obsolete to the accomplished golfer
2.  British clubs are less willing to tinker to adapt to new technology than US ones (rightly or wrongly)
3.  Britain has no really top class parkland courses to match the best in the US, for whatever reason.  Most attempts to remedy this have failed.

I think these points are OK.
History Lessons
Nick Faldo
Old courses need to get modern - new ones should look to the past.

WHEN IT comes to golf courses, we Brits are certainly entitled to shout about what we've got. From rugged, natural, beautiful links courses such as Royal Dornoch, Turnberry and Royal County Down, to classic heathland layouts like Sunningdale, St George's Hill and Walton Heath. And yet, as so often seems the case in Britain, our achievements are more historic than contemporary. In the early part of the last century we were undoubtedly the world's best at designing courses. Harry Colt, Herbert Fowler, Willie Park and Alister Mackenzie were out on their own. True, they were occasionally presented with great pieces of land, but what they produced was usually a terrific test of golf, which was also very sympathetic to the surrounding countryside.
Skilfully balancing subtlety and drama, we built courses admired the world over for their clever placement of hazards and encouragement of strategic play. Sadly,I think most modern designers have lost (or are discouraged from employing) these talents and too many churn out courses as if they were manufacturing shoes on a production line.
And the proof of this is really in the pudding. Take a look at Golf World's Top 100 courses and you will see that a large proportion of them were built over 70 years ago. Very few modern designs have made much of an impression on this list in recent years. Why is this? Why can we no longer create masterpieces like we used to?
Part of the problem is that too often we attempt to ape the American way, we try to create 'American style' courses - but without American conditions or budgets. For example, sprawling, shallow bunkers not only look incongruous in a British landscape but they are also inappropriate. Colt and Fowler typically built deep pot-styled bunkers, largely because that was the only way of keeping the sand in the hazards in windy conditions.
The vast majority of courses being created today can loosely be described as parkland, and unfortunately this type of course has never been our forte. Even in the 'Golden Age of Architecture'we never produced a Bethpage Black or a Winged Foot. In fact, I can only think of one or two really strong parkland layouts:
Mount Juliet in Ireland and Loch Lomond in Scotland . And yet, there is no shortage of beautiful parks in our country - look at all our country estates - but very rarely do such sites fall into the hands of developers, and even when they do, securing planning approval is an extremely difficult process.
As much as I enjoy playing our traditional layouts, I fear that many of our older courses no longer provide the challenge they once did. Of course this is a result of the huge advances in technology in recent years and British golf's reluctance to address the situation. And it is the reason why British courses are slipping down the rankings whenever a 'Best Courses of the World' list is compiled.
I recently played the East Course at Wentworth: it is a charming golf course, but even an old man like me was driving it 50 yards past all the bunkers. That's no good, you've got to bring them back into play. The Americans are always refining their courses, adding a bunker here, putting a tee in there. We tend to be very bad at that in Britain: "It's got 18 tees and 18 greens, blimey, what more do you want?" Our approach is to build a course, leave it for half a century and expect it to produce the same challenge as it always did.
So many courses in Britain now have hazards which are miles away from the green; so a player who hooks a shot wildly ends up in the deepest bunker on the golf course. That's the last thing you want. Let's make our courses tough for the guy who hits it straight; and let's make it easier for the poor chaps who don't know if it's going 30 yards left or 30 yards right.
My other concern for British courses relates to conditioning. Increasingly, I see a trend towards overwatering. A couple of summers ago I played a very famous heathland course in Surrey. It hadn't rained for six weeks and yet it was so soft that I hit a 3-iron onto a green and it backed up. I'll never forget that. I thought "No. Why do they do that? If it's dry, let it play firm and fast. Let it be natural." Target golf encourages one-dimensional golf. What has most distinguished British golf courses in the past is their emphasis on shot-making - encouraging, and rewarding, the skilful execution of a wide variety of strokes. This is something we should never forget.  
 
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lester_Bernham

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2002, 07:36:12 AM »
Paul
Mr Faldo said , one of the problems with building American style courses in the UK was that sprawling shallow bunkers look incongruous and inappropriate on a British landscape .

I have never played Chart Hills , but from photos they dont look sprawling or shallow . Are they really considered American in style ? .

Then again I have just re-read an interview he gave to GW in 1999 , so maybe you are right Paul .  

GW.Have your ideas on design changed much over the years?
N.F.I used to think 'Let's put 10 bunkers in', where now I'd only use two.

GW.What about the 9th at Chart Hills?
N.F.Yes, that's a sea of sand. We put two in at the front, ended up with five, and then filled the hillside up on the left. A better example I think is the 16th . I think that would be awesome if it was just a hill of sand. Maybe we could blast that and turn it into a totally natural-looking waste hill with a few bushes in it. The bottom line is that I'm a big one for trying to get the golf course to look as natural as possible.


Its all very contradictory isnt it ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: 10 years of World Rankings
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2002, 10:08:04 AM »
Lester

That's right, I have no idea where he's coming from.  Chart Hills cerainly has sprawling bunkers although most are quite deep (there's one called the Anaconda that blood enormous).  They certainly do look incongruous with the English landscape.  It's still a good course though, because it's well routed and the greens are interesting-probably the best of the new modern courses in the South East. (I've walked it, but not played).  (It's probably much more Steve Smyers's than Faldo's, anyway)

I'm a bit suspicious that he's trying to drum up some redesign work for himself in the UK.  I thought his comment about British clubs falling down the rankings and using this as justification for course tweaking was just plain nuts.  I can't think of a less relevant reason, and then to discover that he was wrong anyway!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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