Architecture's ultimate symbiotic relationship ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Is good and great architecture magnified by the WIND ?

Is there a relationship between many of the good and great golf courses and the presence of WIND ?

Do courses buffeted by wind and prevailing winds rise above most others ?

Would some of the good to great golf course be diminished if the wind should cease to blow ?

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

I am intrigued by your use of the word symbiotic, which tends to imply some sort of relationship with a mutual benefit. Would you mind explaining your use of that particular word, as your questions seem to be one-sided in regard to the wind's relationship in benefitting the architecture.

I can think of several examples where the inverse is true and I think it would be most interesting to analyze both sides of the equation.

Are there instances where architecture can amplify or deamplify the affects of wind? In which cases are these good or bad uses of architecture?

An example I keep hearing regarding the influence of wind is Augusta National's 12th hole. Does this hole fit the ideal for the architecture using the wind and the wind benefitting the architecture in return?

Symbiotic, to me, implies give and take... how does that and other examples show that?

Very intriguing question Pat, when I get some rest (played 36 holes today with Cory Lewis in Ocean City so I am beat) I will respond in further detail.

[ForkaB]

Pat

ALL great golf courses are diminished by any lack of wind.  You know the mantra, nae wind nae gowf......

[RJ_Daley]

I can't remember any memorable round of golf, no matter where played if there wasn't some element of wind.  Golf on a still day is like the proverbial "kissing your sister".  It might be a priveledge to play a NGLA or SH or you name it, on a still day.  But that certain essence would be lacking with a dead still day.  To that end, any course has to have benefit from the additional element of wind when the object of the game is to send a projectile that you launch through the air at a target.  Adding the extra brain power to compute the effect of the wind makes it more exciting.  

Although, symbiotic is 2 unrelated organisms living in a mutually beneficial arrangement.  Sort of like TEP and Mucci riding out together to the sand hills through the crowded airport system and rental car through wild Buffalo Bill Cody country.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kyle, Rich & RJ,

Is the number of responses not proof of the intellectual bankruptcy of the site ?

[JESII]

Pat,

Rich Goodale seems to cover all of your question with 4 words. Don't take offense to one of your threads going to page 2 in Sullivan Speed, it's no problem.

[Andy Hughes]

OK, I'll be the dissenter.  Yes, I agree that golf is better with some wind, and yes, I agree with everything Pat wrote.

But I disagree that wind is needed to have great golf or an incredibly enjoyable round of golf.  It is just one of a group of factors.
Nae wind, nae golf....what did the Scots know about golf?  

[Brent Hutto]

Wind affects some "good and great" golf courses more than others. One factor is how many trees are in play on the course. Contrast the two following "good and great" courses:

The Old Course at St. Andrews.

The best players in the world seem to feel that there's not much to it on a dead-calm day but that with a 15-20mph wind it becomes one of the greatest courses in the world. I'd guess the prevailing opinion among those on this forum who've played TOC agrees with that assessment.

Augusta National Golf Club

Think back to the greatest rounds ever at the Masters. Were most or all of them on windy days? I'll bet at least a few of them were played in dead calm or nearly calm conditions. Sure, the twelfth hole is all about judging the wind but the eleventh, thirteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth holes are equally interesting if it's calm or if it's blowing 30mph.

[EDIT] Note that I'm not saying that ANGC 11, 13, 15 and 16 were equally difficult with or without wind. Just that they're equally fun to play, equally good at separating the best player from the also-rans and equally interesting to watch being played in a major championship.

[Jfaspen]

I'm limited by not having played the course I'm going to discuss, but having viewed the television coverage, read the observations of people that have played it and even traversed it in a video game, i'll take a chance.

After mulling over the first post, I was reminded of the 17th and 18th holes at the Kapalua Plantation Course.  Both of these holes play much shorter given the prevailing winds, but when these winds fail, or if the course played soft (and the players could not count on the roll) I think both holes would play opposite of how C&C intended.

I think this architecture, good, if not great is magnified by the wind.  The wind cuts away at the yardage but also forces a player to consider the difficulty of hitting an approach shot downwind off a downhill lie.  

I doubt this architecture would have been used had there not been such a strong prevailing wind.

[ForkaB]

Interesting comparison, Brent.

I think (based on only 2nd hand "experience") that Augusta would be close to unplayable in a 2-3 club wind--if it were treeless and set up as it is for the Masters.  I can't imagine how the pros, no matter how good they are, would approach some of those greens downwind.

On the other hand, the Old Course (and most links courses) might actually play harder on dead calm days.  Without a gentle zephyr, you might be tempted to play the aerial game (which will work on some holes, but not others) too often. Also, the sand flies will come out when the wind drops, and it's hard to concentrate when you have a few hundred beasties flying in and out of your ears as you stand over your shot!

[Kyle Harris]

I think the ultimate test of this symbiosis is how effective even a trace amount of wind is at altering the playability of the hole.

Doesn't the 12th hole at Augusta make a player step back and think with even the slightest breeze? Is this based on past experience or does the location and the design of the hole magnify the affects of the wind?

My beloved White Course is a blast to play in the wind, and wind in ANY direction. While the current set up of the golf course makes it vulnerable to an aerial blitz, any trace amount of wind forces the ball down and the Willie Park holes then place a premium on position, accuracy and angle of attack. Since the hole locations forced by today's mowing lines are basically in the center of the old Park greens, this got me thinking.

Does the wind synergy make certain course setups more favorable over a calm day set up? The White Course is a blast to play in the wind since what amounts to a middle hole location then becomes a left or right hole location based on the direction of the wind.

Is it possible to design a green with the idea that a wind from any direction will add interest to the contour already there, and a negligible amount of wind will still hold a different kind of interest?

[Kyle Harris]

I am bumping this to complement Brian's thread about wind.

[Andy Troeger]

OK, I'll be the dissenter.  Yes, I agree that golf is better with some wind, and yes, I agree with everything Pat wrote.

But I disagree that wind is needed to have great golf or an incredibly enjoyable round of golf.  It is just one of a group of factors.

I'll agree with that (must be the first name)!  I don't mind playing in the wind, but I don't mind a calm day either. The wind certainly adds an element of challenge to the game and to any course, and it adds variability when playing the course multiple times. However, I think a strong course plays well with or without wind.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

At what velocity, in terms of club lengths, does the wind begin to override the architeture ?

[Sean_A]

At what velocity, in terms of club lengths, does the wind begin to override the architeture ?

Pat

It depends somewhat on the temperature.  Normally I would say anything over 3-4 clubs (~25mph) is getting too difficult.  Today we played in a good 3 club breeze and with temps around 40.  It probably played more like a 5 club breeze because the ball doesn't fly well in cold temps.  It wasn't terribly pleasant.  Several holes were unreachable in regulation.  It was more a game of survival.  

I am amazed when guys on this site go on about 40-45 mph winds and loving it.  In my experience wind this strong is unplayable because marked balls roll on greens or putts roll back to your feet off a breeze.  Architecture is definetly beside the point in this type of wind.  

Unplayable wind has only happened to me twice in many years of seaside golf so I know it isn't terribly common.  For those of you that recall Deal last year during the Buda Cup those winds were ~30mph and it was most unpleasant.  The Nafster said those were the worst conditions he'd seen at Deal.  Still playable, but very difficult and not much fun.

Ciao

Sean

 

[Gene Greco]

At what velocity, in terms of club lengths, does the wind begin to override the architeture ?

Depends on the course.

At TOC, Sand Hills and many other links and links style courses I believe it doesn't matter.

At say Winged Foot West, I believe anything over a three club wind renders the course architecture unfit for play.

[Jesse Jones]

Great Topic..Pat..
Mid March-Ocean Course-30mph winds.
Been there..Tried to do that..
Yes, there is a limit.. I'd call it four clubs.
Wind and precipitation must be taken into account.
Anyone here tried hot, dusty and windy west Texas golf ?
Totally unplayable..
A little moisture on the course can help things..
But not much..

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Sean,

I agree, I think anyone touting the enjoyment of playing in a 40-45 mph wind is being disengenuous.

For discussion sake, let's keep the temperature at 65-80

Gene Greco,

I'd disagree with you.

Greens with slope and/or contour are adversely affected by high winds.

The intended architecture is defeated if a ball can't remain on a putting surface due to winds, and I can see many of the greens at SH being unplayable in high winds unless the greens are stimping at 4-6.

The same would apply to Bandon and Pacific Dunes.
The first time I played there I was surprised by how slow the greens were.  When I played there and the winds were up, I understood why the greens were slower than I had expected.

On tee to green play, depending on the routing, certain hazards can be taken out of play because you can't reach them, or, they're easy to fly.

I recently played in a two to three club length wind and many, if not most of the DZ hazards were taken out of play by the wind.  In addition, some hazards NEVER in play, came into play.

Seminole on a benign day presents a comfortable challenge.
Seminole in a two club wind day presents an exacting challenge.
Seminole in a four club wind is almost unplayable unless the greens are slowed down.

While each golf course has its wind "threshold" something tells me that it's in the two to three club length range.

[Gene Greco]

I'd call it four clubs.
Wind and precipitation must be taken into account.
Anyone here tried hot, dusty and windy west Texas golf ?
Totally unplayable..

Jes:
    Lived in Midland and then Lubbock for 3-4 years. In a driving contest hit one 346 yds and came in third!!!! With a persimmon head!!!! I KNOW I hit one close to 400 at Odessa CC one day - 275 in the air, 125 on the ground.

    Virtually every darn par 4 at Hogan Park was drivable on one day or another. Downwind one could "bounce" a wedge 190 yards on the moistureless "turf" in that blazing summer heat.

     Midland CC always seemed "greener" than any other course in the area as did Lubbock CC - not nearly as much roll.

     Be interesting to go back and see how the Rawls Course is maintained out in "hot, dusty and windy West Texas."

[ForkaB]

At what velocity, in terms of club lengths, does the wind begin to override the architeture ?

Pat

It depends somewhat on the temperature.  Normally I would say anything over 3-4 clubs (~25mph) is getting too difficult.  Today we played in a good 3 club breeze and with temps around 40.  It probably played more like a 5 club breeze because the ball doesn't fly well in cold temps.  It wasn't terribly pleasant.  Several holes were unreachable in regulation.  It was more a game of survival.  

I am amazed when guys on this site go on about 40-45 mph winds and loving it.  In my experience wind this strong is unplayable because marked balls roll on greens or putts roll back to your feet off a breeze.  Architecture is definetly beside the point in this type of wind.  

Unplayable wind has only happened to me twice in many years of seaside golf so I know it isn't terribly common.  For those of you that recall Deal last year during the Buda Cup those winds were ~30mph and it was most unpleasant.  The Nafster said those were the worst conditions he'd seen at Deal.  Still playable, but very difficult and not much fun.

Ciao

Sean

 

Sean

With all  due respect, the only reason Deal was unplayable (or less than fun) at last year's Buda Cup was because those 25-30 mph winds were accompanied by driving rain and the temperature was ~40 Fahrenheit.  Take away the rain and the cold, and it would have been a very grand day.

I've played in much stronger winds when it was dry and relatively warm, and I will have to strongly disagree with Pat Mucci regarding the fun of playing in a 40-45 mph wind.  They have been some of the most interesting, challenging and memorable games of my life.

Pat is obvikously right that once wind get to the 2-3 club stage, the features key designed by the architect tend to get out of play, however on a really well designed course, other features come INTO play, and in many cases these "new" featuresare fascinating.  The scratch player gets to see what the duffer normally sees and vice versa.

Don't knock playing in heavy winds if you haven't tried it!

[Sean_A]

At what velocity, in terms of club lengths, does the wind begin to override the architeture ?

Pat

It depends somewhat on the temperature.  Normally I would say anything over 3-4 clubs (~25mph) is getting too difficult.  Today we played in a good 3 club breeze and with temps around 40.  It probably played more like a 5 club breeze because the ball doesn't fly well in cold temps.  It wasn't terribly pleasant.  Several holes were unreachable in regulation.  It was more a game of survival.  

I am amazed when guys on this site go on about 40-45 mph winds and loving it.  In my experience wind this strong is unplayable because marked balls roll on greens or putts roll back to your feet off a breeze.  Architecture is definetly beside the point in this type of wind.  

Unplayable wind has only happened to me twice in many years of seaside golf so I know it isn't terribly common.  For those of you that recall Deal last year during the Buda Cup those winds were ~30mph and it was most unpleasant.  The Nafster said those were the worst conditions he'd seen at Deal.  Still playable, but very difficult and not much fun.

Ciao

Sean

 

Sean

With all  due respect, the only reason Deal was unplayable (or less than fun) at last year's Buda Cup was because those 25-30 mph winds were accompanied by driving rain and the temperature was ~40 Fahrenheit.  Take away the rain and the cold, and it would have been a very grand day.

I've played in much stronger winds when it was dry and relatively warm, and I will have to strongly disagree with Pat Mucci regarding the fun of playing in a 40-45 mph wind.  They have been some of the most interesting, challenging and memorable games of my life.

Pat is obvikously right that once wind get to the 2-3 club stage, the features key designed by the architect tend to get out of play, however on a really well designed course, other features come INTO play, and in many cases these "new" featuresare fascinating.  The scratch player gets to see what the duffer normally sees and vice versa.

Don't knock playing in heavy winds if you haven't tried it!

Rich

Me thinks you are stretching the truth.  If the temps at Deal were the same as the four layer day yesterday I need some sense knocking into me.  I do agree that in the wind we had at Deal the course still had plenty of interest architecturally, but it was difficult to notice with our heads bowed under the rain.  I will also agree that had there been no rain I would have enjoyed the back nine.  I think rain is largely a mental discomfort.  It does effect play, but not to the degree that many blame it for.    

You may love 40 mph wind (are you a nutter or is it your contrarian nature?), but that doesn't mean it is playable.  I had one such day at Muirfield.  Lovely sunny warm day with winds at a steady 40mph and gusting higher.  No match of any meaning could have been held.  The Open would have been postponed on that day.  Unfortunately, the powers that be at Muirfield do not refund money because of weather so out we went.  

Fairways could not be reached.  We were aiming for the lighest patches of rough (have you seen the rough at Muirfield?).  Bunker shots around the green were getting blown back into the bunkers!  I saw two 20 foot putts get blown back beyond the player to leave himself an even longer putt.  

It was a good laugh at times and I did gain an understanding of wind strength, but it was way too difficult to properly enjoy.  I Also learned that many of the stories one hears about high winds are surely embellished for telling sake.  

Ciao

Sean

[Andy Troeger]

Pat is obvikously right that once wind get to the 2-3 club stage, the features key designed by the architect tend to get out of play, however on a really well designed course, other features come INTO play, and in many cases these "new" featuresare fascinating.  The scratch player gets to see what the duffer normally sees and vice versa.

Don't knock playing in heavy winds if you haven't tried it!

Rich,
I also agree with Pat's statement that at 2-3 clubs the features tend to become out of play. I've also only played in 40-45 mph winds once or twice, but I wouldn't want to do it very often. It was somewhat amusing to play two similar length holes of about 385 by driving it within 10 yards of the green on the first and then hitting driver-3 wood within about 20 yards on the next, but that would be absolutely brutal to me on a difficult course.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Rich,

TOC and NGLA tend to fare well in high winds.

TOC because some of the features you mention, which come into play, are probably those features intended for reverse course play.

NGLA has hazards that seem out of play during a normal round, but would probably come into play when very strong winds occur.

At 45 mph, at what pace do the greens you're playing stimp ?
4, 5, 6 ?
And, what are the contours and slope like, 4 %, 3 %, 2%, 1% or 0 % ?

I've stood on the 8th tee at Turnberry and had difficulty keeping my balance, and I take a    W    I     D    E   stance, and the wind was nowhere near 45 mph.

At 45 mph, most balls get blown off their tee

45 mph is approximately 28 mph short of a Force I hurricane.
So, I'm not so sure your measuring devices are accurate.
I"m not talking about gusts, but, a steady wind.

[John Kirk]

Pat,

I agree that wind speed is often overestimated.  I have an anemometer here at home in Oregon, and in 5-6 years of operation it has never recorded a gust over 30 mph.  I live in a relatively sheltered valley, but I still think that's a notable statistic.

A 15 mph breeze is pretty windy, maybe a two club difference, if you don't try to alter the trajectory.  John V. once told me the average wind at Bandon Dunes, which was used to rate the course, is 9 mph.

The windiest conditions I ever experienced were rounds at Carnoustie and Nairn during my only visit to the Scotland.  At Carnoustie, the wind was perhaps 35 mph with gusts to 50 mph.  Although the big course is designed well for wind, it was a bit much.  My dad was able to start his round par-par into the breeze.  Our Scottish cousin Austin never once mentioned or complained about the wind.

As an Oregonian, most of my experience with windy golf occurs in Bandon.  Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes are designed well for the wind.  I would say a 4 club wind is when things start getting goofy.  The ball starts vibrating, and sometimes moving, when you put your putter behind it.  The only hole at Bandon not designed well for a heavy wind is #6 at Bandon, an oceanside par 3 into the summer wind.  If it's really blowing, it's near impossible to get the ball into play.

I think making short putts in a high wind is extremely difficult and mentally challenging.

[Gene Greco]

Gene Greco,

I'd disagree with you.

Greens with slope and/or contour are adversely affected by high winds.

The intended architecture is defeated if a ball can't remain on a putting surface due to winds, and I can see many of the greens at SH being unplayable in high winds unless the greens are stimping at 4-6.

Pat:

    I've seen the course (SH) in every conceivable type of wind and wind speed and believe your theory is in error.

The ONLY time I saw an "unfair" result due to high wind/stimp was on 18 when a very long hitting buddy of mine, Pete Enstine, nutted his tee ball and hit a nuclear 3 wood into a howling wind out of the east to ten feet to a pin which was placed as far forward on the green as possible. The wind turned the ball over one dimple and down the hill it went.

The usual winds at Sand Hills, which incredibly and unfortunately you didn't experience, have been accounted for rather nicely in both the design of the lines of play to and on the greens.

Remember, sometimes the best way to get the ball into the hole at places like Sand Hills, Augusta National, etc. is to aim away from it both from the fairway and on the green.