[mike_malone]

 As we take down a line of evergreens that effectively contain everything can we keep the cart path that was constucted just to the right of those trees. If the fairway gets moved closer to the old tree line is it reasonable to start the penalty for a missed shot with a "bounce"?

   My preference is to get rid of the path but I wonder if it can double as a hazard.

[Kyle Harris]

Mayday,

I don't think it would work too well on 7 at Rolling Green - if that's what you're talking about.

However, I will continually hope that someone out there integrates a cart path with a green as a Road Hole type green.

To all you naysayers out there... we all realize that golf and utility have NEVER been melded together to form interest...  

[mike_malone]

 Actually  I was thinking of #4.

[A_Clay_Man]

Absolutely. Didn't the recent asgca meeting include a semninar on turning cart paths into hazards? Not just any hazard, a water hazard designed to act like the Red Sea in Cecil B. DeMile's "ten commandments". When the cart comes along, the water recedes to each side. And don't worry about the cost. You will re-coop it in no time. You will literally have to beat off all the new customers (or prospective members) with sticks. For another million you can have sticks that turn into snakes.

[Kyle Harris]

Actually  I was thinking of #4.

Jeez, that'd be one helluva miss off the tee. Where would you move the path? I think it'd be worse down the left side along the creek that should, by rights, be more integrated with the fairway.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

You could install a soft path if the slopes are modest.  Check with your consulting architect.

[mike_malone]

 Adam,

   Your idea sounds a little too biblical for me



   The key word is "existing" . We may need to compromise sometimes as we regain our old lines of play.

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,

   This is about keeping the path in place not moving it.

[Kyle Harris]

  My preference is to get rid of the path but I wonder if it can double as a hazard.

Mike,

Yes, I realized, was more curious about this statement. Why move it?

[Brad Klein]

Mayday, don't just rely on the naturally occuring cart path -- as you find it in the woods -- for a hazard. Design them properly, using the services of a qualified golf course architect, and have them tip the surface of the path outward. That achieves two crucial design functions simultaneously. It magnifies the penalty for drives that wander away from the preferred line of play, and it also diverts surface runoff water away from the fairway.

[mike_malone]

 Consulting the experts! Brilliant!!

[John_Cullum]

Would you prefer your path to be a bunker or a water hazard?

[wsmorrison]

The last thing you'd want is to not use an expert to figure out the flow and placement of carts and paths.  Look how incredibly poor it is laid out today--a haphazard and likely amateurish effort.  And you think it might be a good thing to incorporate them in play if fairways are widened or moved?  That is a scary thought.

Listen to Kelly, Brad and others that advise the use of expertise.  The cart paths are generally in the wrong place on most holes.  But only an expert should advise where and when to use them.  I think we need fewer cartpaths but I wouldn't advocate anything unless a qualified architect studied the matter.  I certainly wouldn't be putting dumb ideas in the minds of the powers that be...who knows, they might listen to you one of these days  

My lay thoughts are that fairways need not be moved, but rather expanded to their original dimensions if irrigation allows.  If you move fairways, you likely have to move irrigation and it becomes an expensive process.  

Brad,

You may not have ever seen Rolling Green, a lot of cartpaths are on hillsides with fairways below.  Many of these slopes don't need cartpaths if the carts are directed far enough away from the line of play (there is a fair amount of room in most cases).  They certainly couldn't build cartpaths that are tilted away from the fairways though that is a great idea for courses with less topography or the topography moving in an appropriate direction.

Mike,

This should be done carefully and integrated with the architectural plans.  Don't do one without the other and don't do either without an architect.  Too many things have been done at RGGC without the oversight of an architect.  There are two really good ones currently consulting.  Let Ron and Jim take care of it.  

[mike_malone]

 John,

  In my recent reading of some of the classic architecture books I have read an idea that "hazard" can be expanded to include hills, for example. Would these guys be more imaginative and say "Let's use what we have here and make something out of it?"

[John_Cullum]

Under the rules of golf, the only hazards are bunkers or water hazards.

If an immovable obstruction is within a water hazard, there is no free relief.

[wsmorrison]

"In my recent reading of some of the classic architecture books I have read an idea that "hazard" can be expanded to include hills, for example."

Of course topography (hills, valleys, mounds, depressions, etc) are used as strategic components of golf courses.  Call them hazards if you want, but this obvious fact has been evident since golf courses were laid out on links and designed elsewhere.  This should not be something recently realized.

"Would these guys be more imaginative and say "Let's use what we have here and make something out of it?""

Mike,

Who are "these guys" that you refer to?  If the "what we have here" is cartpaths, then I'd say not on a classic era course which was designed without cartpaths in mind.  Rolling Green has enough natural interest that cartpaths, a modern convenience, are far from necessary and would be a huge mistake to include strategically.  You're thinking too much and not very well if you are exploring this area.  Many cartpaths are in the wrong spot or not needed.  Again, follow an integrated approach and let the experts lead.  You follow their lead.  Your in good hands with Forse and Nagle.

[redanman]

Chip the wood of the DEAD TREES[/color] and use it as the cart path over there to the left of #4.

That way they can still be there for the tree lovers.  

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   The fascinating aspect of gca.com is that there are many opinions from all over the world that gather here. When I get a crazy idea I like to see what the responses will be on this site.

  I certainly agree with consulting with the experts;in fact, this thread has helped me to reiterate that to "the powers that be".

[wsmorrison]

"I certainly agree with consulting with the experts;in fact, this thread has helped me to reiterate that to "the powers that be"."

Now that is an excellent result.  I hope they listen as it is very important that they get the cartpath situation corrected over time.  I know that getting the greens right subordinates everything else, but they sure seem busy on drainage and tree issues as well.  The offseason allows them a great opportunity to deal with these things.  When the season starts, we'll see how the budget is employed.  I suspect cartpaths are not a high priority.  But they should be in the future and I'm glad you're thinking ahead.

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