What were some great original holes.....

[ForkaB]

The old 6th at Dornoch (playing to a serioulsy gnarly backwards facing current 11th green) looked fascinating, but the new (1946) green site is probably even better.

[BCrosby]

The old 6th at ANGC. It originally played as a Redan on acid.

The old 10th at ANGC. It once presented the mirror image of the strategic choices on the 10th at Riviera.

The old 11th at ANGC. It bent left to right with a runaway fairway and a Woking centerline bunker.

Bob

[Dan Moore]

"He made these holes redundant and built the glorious 9th hole, by converting two blind holes into one."

DanM:

Uh-huh. He made two redundant blind holes into one blind drive hole on which the fairway is a bit too far out there for most to handle. Or if he didn't make that tee back there some dolt did.

#9 RCD just may be the coolest looking hole in the world by a great architect that just doesn't work well!  

And from the tee it just may be one of a handful of the most awesomely photographable holes in the world (the backdrop of the Mountains of Mourne are drop-dead gorgeous).

TEPaul

Into the wind that could be a formidable shot over the dune, but on the mild day we played I didn't think the length posed a problem on the drive.  The second shots not bad either.  Hug the left close to the dune for a more open shot into the green.  Hang back right where there is more room and you have to contend with the bunker short.

You're right though that the magnificent view from the top of the dune contributes more to the glory of this hole then how it plays.  The fact that it stunningly caps off the best nine holes I've ever played is also a factor.  Its probably not even the best par 4 on the course though.  A case could be made for #3, #5, #8 and my favorite #13 as better par 4s, but none with better views.    

RCD #13



 

[TEPaul]

Dan:

#13 RCD is definitely in my top five favorite par 4s in the world. I love the way the fairway sort of diagonally narrows down the more aggressive you get off the tee and it could be the ultimate study in cool ways to compensate architecturally for various aspects of semi-blindness. The green and everything to the right of it is simple architectural brilliance. It might be one of the most fun par 4s to play I've ever seen.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan:

#13 RCD is definitely in my top five favorite par 4s in the world.

Tom Paul,

Are you rating things again!?!?  

[Dan Moore]

Dan:

#13 RCD is definitely in my top five favorite par 4s in the world. I love the way the fairway sort of diagonally narrows down the more aggressive you get off the tee and it could be the ultimate study in cool ways to compensate architecturally for various aspects of semi-blindness. The green and everything to the right of it is simple architectural brilliance. It might be one of the most fun par 4s to play I've ever seen.

Totally agree.  The fact you can't see much of the green from the right side of the landing zone since you are blocked by the dune the bunker is set into (hence the aiming marker behind the green), the fact there is 15-20 yards of close cut area sloping away to the right of the green which you can't see in the photo (right of the players exiting the green in the photo) and a large green with alot of contour  and you have a great hole.  

#8s not bad either

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

The old 10th at ANGC the mirror image of the 10th at Riviera ?

Could you explain how ?

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Both are/were short, downhill par fours.

Both have/had greens set at a diagonal, each in a different direction. (Thus the mirror image relationship.)

Both provide(d) for very difficult approaches to the green if the player takes a direct line to the green. At Riviera, that leaves an approach to the shallowest green axis, guarded by flanking bunkers. At ANGC, that left a blind approach over a very large bunker (still there) to a fall away green.

Both provide(d) for indirect playing strategies that open(ed) up the green. At Riviera it is to play your drive left and away from the green, leaving an approach along the widest green axis.

At ANGC, the smart play was to drive to the right side of the fairway to a small plateau (still there), from which the green opened up. Anything too agressive would have rolled into a swale (still there) right and short of the green. A very dicey driving challenge. (Far more interesting than the rope hook everyone hits on 10 today.)

Can I go home now?

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Can I go home now?"

Not until you write on the blackboard 100 times--

Pat Mucci is a dumby
Pat Mucci is a dumby
Pat Mucci is a dumby.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Both are/were short, downhill par fours.

That's not true.
The original 10th at ANGC played at 430 yards for the Masters, that's hardly a short par 4.

# 10 at Riviera plays from an elevated tee to a level fairway.
# 10 at ANGC plays seriously down hill to a fairway that drops precipitously away from the golfer.  The drop to the landing area is more than 100 feet, which is huge.[/color]

Both have/had greens set at a diagonal, each in a different direction. (Thus the mirror image relationship.)

# 10 at Riviera is a thin sliver of a green set to an oblique angle.
# 10 at ANGC wasn't a thin sliver and was nowhere nearly as angled as Riviera.[/color]

Both provide(d) for very difficult approaches to the green if the player takes a direct line to the green. At Riviera, that leaves an approach to the shallowest green axis, guarded by flanking bunkers.

Riviera's 10th still provides a very difficult approach, closely flanked by front and rear bunkers on an angled green, ANGC's old 10th didn't provide a difficult approach, it was rather straight away, and the bunker you reference didn't front the green, it flanked the left side of the green, and was substantively offset from the green. [/color]

At ANGC, that left a blind approach over a very large bunker (still there) to a fall away green.

That's not true.
That bunker was well left of the green, not in front of it.
And, the approach didn't have to come over that green, and the approach wasn't blind.  The green was described as being defenseless, which is hardly how you'd describe Riviera's 10th.[/color]

Both provide(d) for indirect playing strategies that open(ed) up the green. At Riviera it is to play your drive left and away from the green, leaving an approach along the widest green axis.

Riviera's green is at a severe angle, the old 10th at ANGC was at a benign angle, and you can't compare the approaches in terms of risk/reward, there is no comparison, Riviera's green is well fortified, ANGC's green was fairly wide open, and was described as being defenseless.[/color]

At ANGC, the smart play was to drive to the right side of the fairway to a small plateau (still there), from which the green opened up. Anything too agressive would have rolled into a swale (still there) right and short of the green. A very dicey driving challenge. (Far more interesting than the rope hook everyone hits on 10 today.)

If it was so dicey I doubt they would have altered the hole.
McKenzie himself described the hole as comparatively easy.[/color]

Can I go home now?

Not before you reprimand TEPaul, and make sure that he's written, "TEPaul is a dummy" 1000 times.[/color]

[ChipOat]

Pat Mucci et al:

How do we know the original #'s 6, 10, 11 and 16 were great holes in the first place?  Have any of us ever played them?  From what I can tell, #'s 11 and 16 were pretty ordinary out of the gate.  6 and 10 - I don't know.

If #13 was a consensus "great hole" in years gone by (which seems to be the case), I'll guess that it qualifies for inclusion although I've not played the new longer version with the Nicklaus back-left green surrounds.

Tom Paul:

How do you spell "dummy"?

As to the original topic of this thread (which is a good one), I'm partial to the lengthening of several holes at Merion in order to return them to (more or less) their original degree of difficulty.  Just how "great" they were beforehand is up to the Treehouse.

Specifically, I refer to #12 (1971) and #'s 9, 14, 15, 17 and 18 (2003).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I never said that # 6, # 10 and # 16 were great holes.

I think those that responded felt that today's version was better than the original version, that the originals had been improved.

It's widely accepted that Perry Maxwell's alteration to # 10 greatly improved the hole.

With respect to # 16, Bobby Jones recommended altering the hole by moving the tee to the left and the green to the right and damming the creek to form a pond between the two.
Robert Trent Jones was the architect who turned Bobby Jones's recommendations into a reality.

And, I believe that the alteration is widely accepted as an improvement.

[BCrosby]

Pat -

10 at ANGC at 430 yards was a very short par 4. It played, then and now, steeply downhill. Players hit lofted approaches.

The bunker blocked a view of the green from the middle or left side of the fairway. Which is the direction in which the fairway slopes. I have both a postcard from the era and a picture from American Golfer Magazine from the early thirties (taken from the woods on 18, just behind the ideal landing site on the right side of the 10th fairway) showing clearly that the bunker has higher than, and would have blocked the view of, the recessed punchbowl green from most spots on the fairway.

The essence of playing the original 10th at ANGC smartly was the essence of how how you play 10 at Riviera smartly. In both cases you don't take the sucker route straight at the green. You have to play away from the centerline to open up the best approach. In the case of the original 10th at ANGC, that meant finding a shelf of the right side of the fairway, arguably a more interesting shot that finding the best spot on the left of the fairway at Riviera.

But don't believe me. The NYT in 1933 wrote:

"The player who has taken the correct line over a succession of hillocks on the right hand side is presented with an easy second shot into an opening that leads to a nature made punch bowl green."

MacK's bunker, the recessed green and the slope of the fairway made the original 10th a remarkably good short par 4. A hole of the same type and in the same league as the 10th at Riviera.

As for "widely held views" about the current quality of the 10th - since when do we defer to "widely held views" about golf architecture? You continue down that path and you may soon find yourself with a job as a USGA setup guy.

Bob    

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

When McKenzie calls it a comparatively easy hole, I'd go with his views rather than those of the New York Times.

If you'll look at the original map/schematic of the hole it provides you with a good understanding of how it worked.

I also have pictures, circa 1932, of the hole.

It would seem that only balls hit in the left rough or woods would have to come over that bunker, it presented no fronting hazard.

Perry Maxwell thought he improved the hole and I thing it's widely accepted that he did, even amongst GCA.com and the cognoscente.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul:
How do you spell "dummy"?

Chip:

It all depends on who one's talking about. Generally it's spelt "dummy" but I'm talking about Pat Mucci here so I told Bob to spell it 100 times as "dumby". I was considering telling Bob he could alter it after 50 to "Pat Mucci is a dumbo" but I'm sure there'll be plenty of time and opportunity for that in the future.


"Bob,
When McKenzie calls it a comparatively easy hole, I'd go with his views rather than those of the New York Times."

Jeeesus Keeriiist Pat, what's gotten into you these days? It's the NEW YORK TIMES you're talking about---they've never gotten anything wrong---EVER!

Patrick---Perry Maxwell, in my opinion, was just great, maybe one of the very best green designers and builders there ever was but in the case of ANGC maybe he should've kept his Oklahoma corn-pickin' hands off his former partner Alister's golf course.

Bobzee:

Through some extraordinary research on my part I have just discovered why ANGC and Clifford Roberts refused to pay Mackenzie what they owed him despite his begging them in the end.

Alister sent a dike from California down to advise on some of the final work at ANGC and if there was anything Mr Roberts really hated it was golf champion, polo playing, golf course architect bull-dikes from California, particularly if they could regularly out-drive him and even Bobby sometimes. That's also the reason ANGC has been lengthening their golf course every years since its inception. It's not Tiger they're worried about it's that some bull-dike from California might show up and hit the 13th and 15th in two with a GAP-wedge.