News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2006, 09:37:02 AM »
I think you will find that nearly ANY player will be welcome at these courses when they are up and running. Providing, of course, they pay their fees and act accordingly. The perception that remote clubs are off limits is, well, a perception in most instances.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2006, 09:54:13 AM »


Is it just me, Or is there something odd about the look of the sandy areas?

As Pat said, on your way to SH, you see everything in it's natural state. The distant blow-outs don't look much like this photo. It resembles more of an Oceanside sandy area than this regions. Anyone else notice anything?

Now I will qualify all this by saying, I'm basing this on this one photo, and I have not seen the Dismal, yet played SH.

McCloskey

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2006, 10:12:24 AM »
A lot of this thread is laughable.

Mr. Clayman - Honestly now, did you ever look at a pictures of Sand Hills and ask if there is something "odd" about the look of the sandy areas?

Could it be that because Nicklaus' name in on this course, you begin looking for "odd" things.  

I am glad to know there isn't any bias on this board.  Laughable!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2006, 10:40:23 AM »
Adam,

I suppose what you're looking at could be areas that were recently seeded and hydro-mulched. In other words, areas that will be in play.

And......pet peeve.....anonymous posters are laughable. Why do we still allow this? If the McCloskey was here to add anything at all, he might have actually looked at the above picture and came to a similar conclusion as I did...even if I'm wrong, I'm trying to help.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2006, 11:13:30 AM »
Funny — "odd" can be both good and bad. I would not call this "odd" Adam. It looks interesting. "Odd" would the palm trees that you and I had to endure as we finished a certain 18th hole a few years back. ;)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

redanman

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2006, 11:15:42 AM »


Is it just me, Or is there something odd about the look of the sandy areas?

As Pat said, on your way to SH, you see everything in it's natural state. The distant blow-outs don't look much like this photo. It resembles more of an Oceanside sandy area than this regions. Anyone else notice anything?

Now I will qualify all this by saying, I'm basing this on this one photo, and I have not seen the Dismal, yet played SH.

Adam

Stop it before you strain something.  (Just a friend trying to help)  8)

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2006, 11:29:33 AM »
There was a thread from last year that I have tried to find in vain that someone posted a few bunker pictures from SH in the 90s and compared them to ’05.  Several bunkers have “grown” in since and they definitely look more native now than they did in the 90s.  IE if left alone, the washed away bunkers at DR will look more native as time goes on.  

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2006, 11:29:41 AM »
I believe if you squint hard enough it is possible to see a likenes of Jesus in the third dune hill from the lower-left, toward the right edge of the green.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2006, 11:50:53 AM »
You guys go ahead and make fun all you want.

It only strengthens my biases.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2006, 11:58:56 AM »
For those of you at all interested, I have now leaned to deploy smilies. Please forgive any and all previous posts which did not adequately capture my jabs and sarcasm to the degree you are used to.

 :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 11:59:32 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2006, 12:10:48 PM »
Fascinating. I try to turn the conversation back to GCA and am attacked for making an observation.

Mclosky, or whoever you are. I  find your comment to be a most sensitive reaction. Similar to a women who protests too much.
What apparent bias do you have regarding Jack's work? You must have one if you make the leap you imply I was making. It was a comment for discussion not a condemnation of the work. I asked if anyone else noticed anything. I suppose your experiences dont encompass both seaside dunesland and the sand hills regions blowouts. Otherwise you could perhaps grasp what I was trying to discuss. Not bash. Glad you had a good laugh.

Now show us all how much honestly and integrity you have by answering my question.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2006, 12:46:26 PM »
I remember the thread Jason is trying to recall, but can't find it on the feeble search engine.  I had made comments then about early construction photos of DR - that there appeared to be important differences in the construction approach compared to SH.  That being that DR appears to have more grading and shaping work done for fairways, yielding a more even flow of contours, as opposed to SH, and a more abrupt and rumpled natural lay of the land that was achieve by merely turning over the native soils, and seeding the turf with minimal grading.  

I think the DR hydromulching was more needed at DR than SH, or  atleast it might have been felt that hydro would yield a faster take due to even more sloping.

Also, I said that it seemed that in the photo up the 18th, with the vast waste area on the left of equal width to the fairway on the right, with a sort of drainage trough that appears to be behind in the grow-in due to wash down, that some issues might arise.  Sand migration-drifting from the waste to the fairway (depending on direction orientation) and desication are factors up there.

I think Adam might be looking at what he deems "odd" in that the hydro-mulch seed take on the photo he uses demonstrates a slow grow-in, leaving sparse sandy slope.

The thing about the 1995-6 photos I had posted of SH is that they show significant winter errosion in the bunkers, with various pallets and bales and tires being used to try to stabilize them during winter.  

They don't call them blow-outs for nothing.  The real test at DR will come in a few more months, coming out of winter that appears to have its share of severe, blowing and freeze warm cycles.  Up there in the sand hills, a severe winter can raise hell with the golf course features.  With as much sand, waste, and natural blowouts and contructed bunkers as is depicted, I'm betting they will have their hands full.

One maintenance meld or architects specification that could make DR very enjoyable IMHO would be to maintain the greens surrounds with wider short fringe cut and intermediate rough cuts than SH.  Set the native areas back at least 20-30ft from the green surfaces, generally.  Provide run-away collection areas for the option of putting or chipping back onto the greens, like Wild Horse offers.  That is one of my biggest biases. ;D ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2006, 01:08:18 PM »
Dick, If that is hydro seeded fairway that appears to be a giant sandy waste area, than I think you nailed my odd.

Scott Cannon

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2006, 01:16:24 PM »
I dont know how to ask this question, but here it goes.
Do C&C or JFN consider the fact that the bunkering on those courses wil...be reshaped by nature? That sounds like a dumb question, and it probably is, but because of the brutal nature of the sight, would they have considered/hoped for/welcomed these "blow-outs"
Thanks in advance for not laughing


McCloskey

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2006, 01:19:05 PM »
Adam
I will admit to a bias.   My bias is for fair play.
I do enjoy many of Nicklaus' courses, especially those over the past 15 years or so.   There are several that I am not very fond of.   I can say the exact same thing about C&C. and other favorites on this board.
My bias is not for any particular architect, but I do think all should be treated fairly when being critiqued.

You said that you were only trying to make a comment and not a condemnation in your post and you get attacked.   I apologize if you think I attacked you.   I thought I merely asked you an honest question, of which, you have failed to answer.   Perhaps you do not have a bias, and that your assessment that the blowouts at DR didn't even look like they were from Nebraska, but from coastal dunesland, was not a criticism.   However, from the posts that followed yours, I wasn't apparently the only person to think you were being a bit nitpicky.  So after reading others post that someone said the course looked hard (negative opinion), then others commenting on why would anyone want to build a hard golf course out there, etc, etc, I then read your post about the bunker shaping didn't even look like it belonged in Nebraska.  I just had to laugh at the bias, because I can never recall reading anywhere any questioning the naturalness of the shaping of C&C or TD and others.   It just doesn't seem possible to me, and I could be wrong, that someone could look at a picture and have a thought like you did without some major bias against Nicklaus.
Bias is OK to have.   I am biased against courses designed by Rees, Hills and others because I have seen enough of their work to know what they produce.   Nicklaus has much more variety in his designs than those mentioned, and for the most part, I like his design approach a lot.   I know that is not the prevailing sentiment on this board, and I have no problem with that.   Excuse me, though, when I post when I think I see unmitigated bias leaping from my computer screen.
Golf design is a big tent, and I am accepting of more than most.
Not offense intended.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2006, 01:36:23 PM »
Mc, I believe my observations would've been the same no matter who the designer.  They are after all from a photo. Honestly, I do not have a built in bias against Jack's courses. I let them each speak for themselves. And Trutfully, I hope that Jack's team does learn "how to do that". And that that to me, is creating intelligent design where every aspect is considered especially the elements that tie a course into it's environs. That is my bias. No offense taken.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2006, 01:45:48 PM »
I'm jumping in.

First, I will admit to some bias.  I am a member of Ballyneal, and I like it better than Dismal River, at this early juncture.  I also think Dismal River is a very exciting and interesting golf project, and I expect it to receive plenty of acclaim.  It's terrific.

This happens to be one of the holes that really caught my eye, during my hour long tour of the course.  That blowout bunker, short of the green, is huge, and any mishit shot short of the green will end up in it.  I think there will be plenty of 30-70 yard, difficult bunker shots here.  It will be a very hard hole for the less talented player.

However, my main objection to this hole is the right greenside bunker, adjacent to the green.  To me, this hole looks like I should draw a 6 or 7 iron in there.  If it goes straight, I end up in that bunker.

There just doesn't seem to be an adequate bailout area for the conservative play to the right of the green.  Even for the low handicapper, this is a tough hole, where par is achieved only with a well struck 6-8 iron.
 

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2006, 02:08:02 PM »
The DR, 15th par 3 states that it plays 160-165.  I assume that is a back tee.  Thus, it is highly likely that a forward member tee is about 150ish.  That puts it right in the wheel house for comparison to SH 17th.  Now, from what I can tell of the photo, the hole plays more redanish than 17 SH (leaving out the apparent opposite direction of the two holes).  It almost looks like there is enough runaway slope in the green moving to the left to compare to Shinny's infamous "unfair" hole.  Yet, I also think I see a good downslope into the green from the massive fronting bunker.  I would like to see how much room there is on that down slope behind the fronting bunker edge, which would certainly be very relavant to the fairness of it.  Then, there are two bunkers guarding a run-up slope to the green.  The left greeside bunker is deceptive in that it looks like it is part of the massive front bunker, almost camoflauge or Ross style deception with a fronting bunker that appears at a different distance than it is.  The backstop slope looks like it is very big and would bring overshoots back onto the green, given the constantly firm nature of the sandy soils there.  The bunker on the greenside right looks like there is also a very large/generous LZ in the foregreen, offering a very weak player a chip and putt par.  

But, the photo shows significant wind drift sand migration in front of the massive bunker.  On one hand, that is out of play anyway.  The hole is depicted to play down wind if the map orientation is right.  So, it could play from the back with anything from a wedge with strong down wind, to a 3 iron or more if the odd north howling wind comes in.

I might be able to fall in love with that hole... :o
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 02:09:34 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2006, 02:21:42 PM »
I played Sand Hills #17 three times and never made par.  That is a tough little bastard of a hole.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #94 on: February 18, 2006, 03:01:50 PM »
Scott Cannon:

I can tell you for sure that we thought a lot about sand blowing out of the bunkers at Ballyneal and at Pacific Dunes, because we had heard all about the issue from Dick Youngscap.  In fact, in some cases at Ballyneal we purposely did not excavate the bunkers as deep or as big as we might have, because we figure they will get there soon enough, and that's a year or two longer before the client has to start refilling them with sand after the winter.

We also hydroseeded the floors of a lot of the Ballyneal bunkers so the sand wouldn't blow so much this winter before the place even opened.  That's one thing I notice from the pictures that they didn't do at Dismal River.  They built them as they would like them to look, but they will look different in a year's time.

Scott Cannon

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #95 on: February 18, 2006, 03:08:30 PM »
Scott Cannon:

I can tell you for sure that we thought a lot about sand blowing out of the bunkers at Ballyneal and at Pacific Dunes, because we had heard all about the issue from Dick Youngscap.  In fact, in some cases at Ballyneal we purposely did not excavate the bunkers as deep or as big as we might have, because we figure they will get there soon enough, and that's a year or two longer before the client has to start refilling them with sand after the winter.

We also hydroseeded the floors of a lot of the Ballyneal bunkers so the sand wouldn't blow so much this winter before the place even opened.  That's one thing I notice from the pictures that they didn't do at Dismal River.  They built them as they would like them to look, but they will look different in a year's time.

Thanks Tom,
Can always count on you to answer newbies stupid architecture ?'s

Tim Kratz

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2006, 01:55:48 PM »
I am one of the principals in the Dismal River project and have some comments regarding the interesting posts on this thread.  

First, I am a passionate walker, to the point where I frequently try to obtain exceptions to allow me to walk courses with mandatory cart rules.  I have walked Dismal several times, and I believe it is a very walkable layout.  Of course, I also believe Sand Hills is very walkable, an opinion that may not be shared by others in this discussion group.  (I've played at least 50 rounds at Sand Hills, and I've walked it the majority of those times; the only exceptions being second and third rounds played in one day).  Tee to green distances generally are short at Dismal, but there are a few significant climbs to tee boxes, particularly the back tees on numbers 7 and 18.  One of the few absolute instructions we gave the Nicklaus design team, and something they wanted to do anyway, was make this a walkable golf course.  

Second, I agree it will be tough course from the back tees, particularly if the wind blows.  I think it will be very sporty and fun from the next set, and not overly difficult, though the bunkering near the greens will always make a big number a possibility.   As you probably can tell from the photos, the fairways are quite wide.  As such, we are hopeful that there will not be a large amount of frustration from players hitting three from the tee.  The big challenge at Dismal will be the approach shots to the greens and trying to make sure you don't miss it in the wrong place.  There will be some frustrations around the greens, but I think those are the sort of frustrations that make golf interesting and challenging, not the kind that make you vow to never return.   I agree with John Kirk that it can make for a long and unpleasant experience to be searching the native all day long for lost balls.  I also believe it can be an amusing and interesting experience to watch a member of your own group, preferably your opponent, roll a putt off the green and fifty yards down the fairway.  I have seen this happen many times on both numbers 1 and 4 at Sand Hills, and, even when it happened to me, I actually thought it was a tad bit humorous.  Very, very little dirt was moved for the green sites at Dismal.  They have a huge amount of natural undulation.   People will occasionally putt off the green.  Hopefully, they'll laugh about it later.  

Also, regarding degree of difficulty, I believe that the members at Dismal River, as they begin to learn the course, will create their own layouts which are most suitable to their abilities.  By this, I mean there is certainly no requirement that a group play every hole from a particular set of tees.  I think even the very low handicappers may choose to bypass the back tees on number two.  Players will mix and match tee boxes freely, and, in essence, create their own course.  Also, as most of you know, the course is above 3000 feet, and the fairways will play hard and fast.  So, the length is not nearly as much of a concern as it might be at another location.      

Regarding the photo of number 15, I am not entirely clear as to what the focus is regarding the "oddity" of the bunkering.  I think it will be an extremely fun hole and not tremendously hard.  There is room to run up the shot on the right side if needed, but, as pointed out previously, the hole is not so long that a run-up is necessarily the play (depending, of course, on the wind).  There also is more room directly in front of the green than you can tell from the photo.   I would guess that many players will aim for the far right side of the green.  If you miss a little to the right, you may end up right by the pin after you bounce down the bank.  You cannot see it from the photo, but there is a large collection area directly to the left and rear of the green.  The chip/putt/utility wood shot from that area is not particularly difficult as the green is sloping directly towards you and the ball will stop quickly.  I don't think this hole is nearly as hard as No. 17 at Sand Hills.  

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2006, 02:29:06 PM »
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Tim. There is nothing better to me than when someone personally involved with a course comes on and offers such insight. And thanks for answering my questions about walkability, it's a topic of personal interest to me. Best of luck in your venture. You'd probably make a good Feature Interview.

-----

McCloskey, I'd say from the content of your intial post, you're not nearly as accepting as you think you are, otherwise you would accept criticism and questions from other posters, and perhaps even address it, rather than immediately pulling out the tired "bias" card.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2006, 03:14:35 PM »
I am one of the principals in the Dismal River project and have some comments regarding the interesting posts on this thread.  
...
Thanks for the thoughtful post and welcome to the site. With this post as a standard, I hope you get by the newbie designation real soon.

I am curious as to what "principals" means. At first I thought it meant you were a principal on JN's  design team. Then I was guessing it meant you were one of the people that got the project started. Is my second guess correct?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Kratz

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2006, 05:42:23 PM »
Garland, your second guess is correct.  I am one of a group of five that started this project and hold an equity interest.  

I do hope to someday move out of the newbie ranks.  Only two more posts (after this), and I will at least be in double digits.  

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back