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Gene Greco

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2006, 11:01:00 PM »
.  But I have to go with Cary's comments from a while back, that most people on this board could do a course ourselves out here and have it come out decent.  I am sure I am going to take some flack for that one, but I think its true.


I disagree, Steve, as I did very sternly, probably too much so, when that was initially posted by Cary.

There are maybe three dozen people on this website who can build a decent golf course on a given piece of land and less than a dozen who can build one that would please this obsessed group.

Most of us can build a very rudimentary, amateurish rendition of something that the general population might call golf.

If you think we can build anything which approaches the brilliance of a design by any number of archies who post here, or Rees or Fazio, my belief is you are in error.
 
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2006, 11:31:48 PM »
A friend of ours is designing the clubhouse and has reported many fine aspects of the course. Each time he returns I ask for photos, only to be told he will get me some. Well, great to see them, even if not from the source I expected!

Dick Burtness, the developer, is a great and passionate guy. He loves great golf and I recall when he had a site in Colorado that he always wanted to do something in the sandhills, even though his "job" at the time was getting the Colorado resort underway. Colorado never panned out and he has been working on the Dismal River project for several years. Congrats!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 11:32:50 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jimmy Muratt

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2006, 12:07:41 AM »
A few things that I noticed upon closer study of the routing map:

- all four par 3's play in different directions (1 north, 1 east, 1 south, and 1 NE)
- hole #6 and #8 are both short par 4's that play in completely opposite directions, one plays due north and one due south.  This reminded me of how great #'s 7 & 8 are at Sand Hills Golf Club.  Two wonderful and potentially driveable par 4's, yet hardly ever on the same day because they go in completely opposite directions.  And, I think they play even more difficult in a crosswind.  

Doug Siebert

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2006, 01:01:50 AM »
Okay, I agree with everyone I think the pictures look good.  But I have to go with Cary's comments from a while back, that most people on this board could do a course ourselves out here and have it come out decent.  I am sure I am going to take some flack for that one, but I think its true.

Here is the biggest problem I have with the short Nicklaus hole.  There is a big bunker right in front of the green.  That leaves only two choices fly the bunker (Hank Kuene) or lay up short.  I don't understand how this is a well designed hole.  Please set me straight or tear me a new one for the first comment.  


Who says you have to drive it ON the green?  From the picture, I think I'd aim about 3 yards right of that bunker and hope I got lucky.  If I push it a bit its fine, if I pull it or draw it, its in the bunker.  I'm much better at a greenside bunker shot than I would be hitting a wedge in from 80 yards out.

It might play into the prevailing wind and driving it isn't an issue most of the time.

Or it could be a long par 3 ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

John Kirk

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2006, 01:11:52 AM »
I've been there, and reported a few of my observations a couple months ago.  In summary:

1.  The scale of the course is enormous.  If you go to the website, the routing diagram the huge area the back nine covers.  Not as walkable as the routing diagram suggests.

2.  There are some unusual "quirky" features.  The windmill in play on the early par 5, and a huge undulating green on the par 3 10th, to name two.

3.  I agree that the course will be very difficult.

4.  That 295 yard 6th hole is sort of a dogleg, with the last 70 yards or so WAY uphill.  The picture minimizes that somewhat.

5.  The greens are pretty wild, and they are using A4 bent grass, so it will be interesting to see how the pin placements and green speeds work out.

6.  The clubhouse and lodging area overlooks a gorgeous river valley.  Spectacularly beautiful, well beyond any views at Sand Hills.

Overall, should be a great place.  Too hard for the mere mortal from the back tees.

peter_p

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2006, 01:36:54 AM »
An interesting project overview from the dismal river website:

http://www.dismalriverclub.com/Default.aspx?tabid=60

Hope there were a few entries missing.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 01:37:32 AM by Peter Pittock »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2006, 06:55:56 AM »
John Kirk, Tom Doak, et. al.,

Does is make sense to design a very difficult course in such a remote location ?

After you've played it a few times, what's the lure to return ?

Isn't it the, "it's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live their" syndrome ?

I would think that a sporty, fun to play golf course would be the ideal product, not a back breaker.

What are your thoughts ?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2006, 08:41:52 AM »
Okay, I agree with everyone I think the pictures look good.  But I have to go with Cary's comments from a while back, that most people on this board could do a course ourselves out here and have it come out decent.  I am sure I am going to take some flack for that one, but I think its true.


That is an interesting question.  How difficult is it to build at least a very good course in the Sand Hills?  
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2006, 09:43:22 AM »
There really is a striking familiarity to the courses in this area. It’s almost as if there has been an entirely new genre created. Almost more traditional than traditional.





If I were being picky, I would have to state a preference for wispier long rough and browner fairways. A less manicured look would create perfection.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2006, 10:10:21 AM »
For those who haven't visited the club's web site (linked by 2 different guys above), here are some of the other pics:

#1, 412 yards


#1 green (falls away, it appears)


#3, back tee, 189 yards


#4 576 yards


#4 green


#7 back tee, 488 yards


#8 357 yards


#10 green


#11 approach from fairway


#11 green


#12, 565 yards


#14 441 yards


#15 160 yards


#16 398 yards


#18 back tee, 582 yards


clubhouse site


scorecard:


routing:

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2006, 10:24:33 AM »
Is it true that the caddies at Dismal River Club will be exclusively female, and wear long prarie dresses and bonnets?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2006, 11:19:14 AM »
On the routing map above, check out the location of the back tee on #15, it appears to be just an extension of a collection area off of the 14th green, very cool feature.  

As far as difficulty goes, why must one play the 7500 yard back tees?  The blue tees are a manageable 6752 yards and features three par 3's under 170 yards and two par 4's under 300 yards.  Now besides length, I can't say how difficult the course would play even from the blue tees, but   no one except a low single-digit player should venture to the tips.

John Kirk

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2006, 12:46:00 PM »
John Kirk, Tom Doak, et. al.,

Does is make sense to design a very difficult course in such a remote location ?

After you've played it a few times, what's the lure to return ?

Isn't it the, "it's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live their" syndrome ?

I would think that a sporty, fun to play golf course would be the ideal product, not a back breaker.

What are your thoughts ?

Patrick,

I've tried to answer this post four times, and there is some magical combination of keystrokes on my computer which causes the form to reset.  So here's a quicker answer.

In general, I agree.  It would be demoralizing to join a club, and never be able to reach your typical range of good scores with a well played round.  But I think the true nature of demoralization has more to do with the number of instances where a disappointing result is encountered.  For a sand hills type of course like Dismal River, I would say the most demoralizing things that could happen are:

1.  Having to make a difficult walk in the native areas looking for a ball.  Especially if you can't find it.

2.  Having to make a difficult walk into a bunker to play a shot, especially if you have to rake it afterwards.  Both 1. and 2. are time consuming and tiring.

3.  Hitting a second putt that ends up nowhere near the hole.  It's OK if I misjudge the first one, but if I hit a good second putt and can't get it close, that's BS.

Generally, I feel self conscious when I take lots of time playing the hole.  I'm holding up the parade.

I played Sand Hills three times last fall.  In our foursome there were two low handicappers and two mid handicap players.  The wind was calm, but we still spent lots of time in the native areas looking for balls.  We had to hurry other aspects of the game to keep up.  That was my only real disappointment with the Sand Hills experience.  On the other hand, I suppose one might feel demoralized if they hit a wedge approach to the first hole, misjudged the uphill, and watched it roll 60 yards backwards when it came up short.  To me, that's more amusing than disappointing.

The natural sand hazards at these sand hills courses are much more difficult than your typical country club course, and I say that's a good thing.  

In my experience, most of the courses considered the greatest in the world are very difficult.  I thought Sand Hills was really tough, but also also very enjoyable.  Same thing with Merion.  I think the golf architect has to be clever to present difficulty while pleasing the player at the same time.  Harking back to Gene Greco's post, it's a subtle and non-trivial art.

But back to your point, Pat.  Not every course should be backbreakingly hard.  Mostly, Dismal River and Ballyneal will be played by older guys who can afford to, and generally we don't play the power game.  Dismal River will be hard, but the 6750 yard length of the second tees suits my current game.  Ballyneal won't be too difficult, unless the wind blows hard.  Plus I can't tell you how the short game will be until the dry turf is optimized.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2006, 03:34:20 PM »
Jimmy Muratt:

Well, if they have a teeing ground connected to a green through a chipping area, then I will venture that Jack & Co. did learn a few tricks from working with us at Sebonack.

I got that idea from looking at a plan we have of The Valley Club which was drawn just after the course opened.  The plan shows nearly every tee connected to the previous green by a fairway cut.  At first I figured that was just an artist's flourish on the drawing to make it look cooler, but when we got the old aerials of the course, sure enough, they mowed it that way.  So we started looking for places to do the same.

As for 7500 yard back tees, my only question is how many people are going to play them at a club like that?  If no one really does, are they worth having around, and doesn't it encourage golfers to play from further back than they should?  These courses do play shorter than the card says, because it's dry and because they are all at 3000-4000 feet in elevation.  But 7500 yards in the winds they have out there is a pretty difficult track, even a Tour pro would struggle with that.

George Pazin

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2006, 04:45:43 PM »
I got that idea from looking at a plan we have of The Valley Club which was drawn just after the course opened.  The plan shows nearly every tee connected to the previous green by a fairway cut.  At first I figured that was just an artist's flourish on the drawing to make it look cooler, but when we got the old aerials of the course, sure enough, they mowed it that way.  So we started looking for places to do the same.

I first saw this feature at Gil's Applebrook. I still think it's the coolest unique thing I've seen in my admittedly limited travels.

Can anyone make out the numbers on the routing well enough to figure out how walkable Dismal River will be? I think for a lot of architects, the vast territory would provide an almost irresistible temptation to build a cartball course with "better holes".
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2006, 04:52:10 PM »
My God, George! ...the coolest unique thing I've seen in my admittedly limited travels...

You cannot be serious...? A neat detail, look and attribute? Yes. But the coolest unique thing...I cannot believe that.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

George Pazin

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2006, 04:58:51 PM »
Forrest, you don't know how limited my travels are. :)

In all seriousness, I'm talking about things I haven't/hadn't seen on a golf course before. That automatically limits the feature to a relative few. If you have some ideas that leap to mind, I'd be happy to consider those.

Actually, the coolest thing I've seen is all the fallaway greens at Oakmont, but I know everyone is sick of hearing me talk about that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2006, 05:06:35 PM »
Is it true that the caddies at Dismal River Club will be exclusively female, and wear long prarie dresses and bonnets?
Yes, and the job ad says former hooters employees need not apply. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2006, 05:18:06 PM »
I'd rather you talk about Oakmont — real meat — than the latest "retro" design trick that has been dug up off some old plan from a dead guy.

"Give me innovation, not vomit."
                       — Forrest Richardson
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jason Mandel

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Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2006, 05:23:37 PM »
Jimmy Muratt:

Well, if they have a teeing ground connected to a green through a chipping area, then I will venture that Jack & Co. did learn a few tricks from working with us at Sebonack.

I got that idea from looking at a plan we have of The Valley Club which was drawn just after the course opened.  The plan shows nearly every tee connected to the previous green by a fairway cut.  At first I figured that was just an artist's flourish on the drawing to make it look cooler, but when we got the old aerials of the course, sure enough, they mowed it that way.  So we started looking for places to do the same.

Tom,

Are you suggesting that you are the first modern architect to use this feature?

I don't know who brought back the idea first but I know C&C have done it as well as Weed, Hanse and I'm sure some others.  

Jason


« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 05:25:11 PM by Jason Mandel »
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2006, 05:44:38 PM »
Jason:  I was not necessarily claiming to be the "first modern architect" to use that feature, I don't know if someone else did first or not.  But I surely haven't seen Jack Nicklaus use it anywhere before, and I would suggest that it's not a coincidence that it popped up right after we'd finished Sebonack.  Jack seemed to like the feature, and so did some of his associates when they all took a tour.

I did connect the third fairway and green and the fourth tee at High Pointe -- so I know that's where Gil first saw it on a modern course, and that predates anything Bill and Ben did.  They seem to be using the feature more and more as well, I've heard Colorado Golf Club does it on most holes, Friars Head has a couple of instances.

As Forrest says, it's partly cosmetics and has little if anything to do with strategic design ... but it does stress the walkability of the course, and we like it better than having to wade through the rough to get to the next tee.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2006, 06:00:53 PM »
I'd rather you talk about Oakmont — real meat — than the latest "retro" design trick that has been dug up off some old plan from a dead guy.

"Give me innovation, not vomit."
                       — Forrest Richardson

To dismiss it as a retro design trick is pretty weak, if you ask me. It's an interesting use of a walking oriented feature, something that is sorely needed, imho.

What earth shattering innovations have you given the game? I'd love to read about them on here. Seriously.

* Edited after reading Tom's post. :)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 06:01:55 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2006, 06:03:54 PM »
Jimmy Muratt:

Well, if they have a teeing ground connected to a green through a chipping area, then I will venture that Jack & Co. did learn a few tricks from working with us at Sebonack.

I see that Pine Needles had a few of these cut chipping areas leading to the next tee.  I think the first hole has  achipping zone behind the green leading to the 2nd tee.  The Road also has a chipping zone between 15 green and 16 tee.  

The first and easily the best I have seen was at Leven.  I think the 15th, a par 3.  The tee for the next hole is up a slope which kicks balls from the left onto the 15th green.  Guys teeing it up on the 16th can literally be maybe 40 feet from the 15th flag.  Very dangerous, but I remember being amazed at the feauture the first time I saw it.


Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andrew Cunningham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2006, 06:53:54 PM »
So does The Gailes at Lakewood Shores in Michigan - 1993 by Kevin Aldridge.  But I guess Tom's 1989 High Pointe pre-dates The Gailes.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Hole-by-hole tour of Dismal River Club
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2006, 07:07:10 PM »
Marc Haring,

In the drive from North Platte to Mullen you will see an infinite number of golf holes that would all bear a striking resemblance to the ones pictured.

It's the land.

I believe Bill Coore described it as the best land for golf in America, and anyone who drives from North Platte to Mullen during daylight hours, who has the slightest architectural vision, can see the infinite number of holes waiting to be discovered.

P.S.  I think  Gil Hanse used closely mown chipping areas contiguous to greens and tees at Applebrook.

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