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Adam_Jessie

Could Flynn Fly?
« on: February 17, 2006, 10:14:26 AM »
I have spent the majority of this rather warm winter looking a lot of different flynn courses. I am cerious if anyone here could lend me their opinion. Do Flynn greens traditionaly have corners (or wings) similar to those found on Tillinghast courses, or are the edges more flowing? I think that they do have wings but not as dramatic as those found on courses like winged foot. Let me know what you think.

- AJ  

wsmorrison

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 11:18:20 AM »
Hey, Adam.  I hope all is well.  I look forward to getting together with you sometime soon.  We have some Flynns in Philadelphia we need to see together.  I'll call you soon.

I'm not really sure what you mean by corners and wings like Tillinghast courses.  I think the Flynn greens you know best (all 18 of them  ;) ) are fairly typical of Flynn, especially from the 1923 and onward.  Flynn's greens flowed into their surrounds very naturally.  Rarely do you see steep drop-offs after 1922.  When Flynn added holes in the mid 1920s to the existing 6 at Eagles Mere (pre 1900) he did so with drop-offs that were sympathetic to the existing greens.  

Potato chips have been used to describe Flynn's greens and I think that is a good generalization but one with many exceptions.  Flynn liked to use what Tom Paul and I call "pull-ups" that add framing, distance perspective, drainage and slope factors into his greens.  There probably are more roll-offs at your course than other Flynn greens and they are wonderful features.  Many times Flynn would have roll-offs behind flanking bunkers.  This not only adds to the precision approaches required but also drainage away from the bunkers.

One thing Flynn didn't do is have internal contouring like some others, particularly Macdonald, Raynor, Tillinghast and MacKenzie.  Ron Forse uses the term integrated slopes and I think that really describes the greens very well.  They are subtle and not nearly as straightforward as most think.  They also take a long time to figure out, a great feature for private courses.

Does this help or muddle the picture even more?

TEPaul

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2006, 07:32:41 AM »
"One thing Flynn didn't do is have internal contouring like some others, particularly Macdonald, Raynor, Tillinghast and MacKenzie."

Wayne:

That's a good point. I've never thought of it exactly like that but thinking through many of his greens that seems right. In that way he was probably almost the opposite with green design than a Perry Maxwell which would make PCC a most interesting combo if it's true that Maxwell redid so many of Flynn's PCC greens and tied into the existing surrounds at the same time. But when I think through PCC's greens I can only think of less than a half dozen that are un-Flynn-like in internal contouring, and at least 1-2 of those are probably someone else altogether.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 07:34:23 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 07:46:25 AM »
Good points, Tom.  I should have mentioned Maxwell as he is probably the better example.  We should tour around Phila Country again sometime looking at the greens.  Some of the work that Maxwell did had to be redone.  By Flynn?  Likely, I guess. Which 1-2 do you think are likely non-Flynn's?  Maybe 2 and 13.  15 reminds me of the 9th at PV a little bit.  I may be imagining things though...I didn't sleep too well last night.

TEPaul

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 08:10:32 AM »
"15 reminds me of the 9th at PV a little bit.  I may be imagining things though...I didn't sleep too well last night."

#15 PCC reminds you of Maxwell's PV left #9???

Jeeesus Keriiist Man, go get some sleep!!

There may not be another green in the world like Maxwell's #9 PV. That green for subtle internal contouring is simply amazing in its "effiective in play" nuance. I've seen three architects now stand on that green and just look at it in amazement. Jim Urbina even conjectured that they may've floated it just by eye which really would be amazing.

wsmorrison

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 08:14:14 AM »
I need some sleep as the screen is blurry and my normal 20/15 vision is more like 20/200.  However, I don't mean to say that 15 at PCC is identical to left 9 at PV but that it has some conceptual links.  I know, go back to sleep.....here I go.

TEPaul

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2006, 08:22:28 AM »
However, I don't mean to say that 15 at PCC is identical to left 9 at PV but that it has some conceptual links."

Oh yeah? Like what? Like both of them have grass on them one can putt on?   ;)

wsmorrison

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2006, 08:23:45 AM »
More like "I always 3-putt these greens"  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Could Flynn Fly?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2006, 08:24:47 AM »
Well, maybe that was a bit harsh. You mean like both of them basically go from back to front?  ;)