What were some great original holes.....

[TEPaul]

.....that through changes of whatever kind were made seemingly better than they were originally?

[Kyle Harris]

15 at Huntingdon Valley. The new tee box extended this par 5 and made an oblique tee shot out of a former straightaway hole.

I believe this was a part of the JB McGovern/Donald Ross modifications made for the pending (but never realized) change in right-of-way for Welsh Road.

It was also made possible by moving the 14th green up the hill and to the left of its original position, which, IMO, is another improvement.. even if it changed the nature of the fairway hazards from oblique heroic to oblique penal.

Though I have no frame of reference, how about the 10th-13th at Merion? The 1st hole?

[wsmorrison]

Riviera's 10th hole is better because of technology.  Although likely unintended, it brings many different methods of play into being which were not available at the time of the opening.  I guess short par 4 holes that are now driveable might benefit the most from technological advancements to balls and implements.  There had to be at least one advantage, right?

[Dan Moore]

No idea if the original was a great hole but the 9th at Royal County Down was once a par 3 before Harry Colt modified it into the great hole it is today.  

[JESII]

No idea if the original was a great hole but the 9th at Royal County Down was once a par 3 before Harry Colt modified it into the great hole it is today.  

really? From where to where? Did that make two par threes in a row, and three out of four? Or was #10 also different?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Actually as great as that little #10 Riviera is, it has been changed from its original and some think it may've been even better than it is now. Originally Thomas had no bunker green-side right. That is most interesting to contemplate in play, for sure. GeoffShac who probably knows the intracacies of that course through its evolution better than anyone may like the original hole with no bunker green-side right best.

DanM:

In my humble opinion, RCD's #9 today is not a great hole although it certainly is a very hard hole for most. I think there're about half a dozen holes on that course alone that're better than that one.

[Phil_the_Author]

16th at Augusta.

[wsmorrison]

That's interesting, Tom.  I had no idea the right greenside bunker was not original.  I'll take a look in Geoff's book, but do you happen to know who put the bunker in?

I'll hazard a guess and say the changes to the left greens on 8 and  9 at Pine Valley were significant improvements over the original designs.  I also like the removal of the pimple on 18.  

I guess because of the erosion problems, the changes made to the slopes on 2 and 18 below the greens at Pine Valley were improvements (thank you Bill Flynn).

[Tom Huckaby]

#5 Pebble Beach, clearly.

[JESII]

I'll hazard a guess and say the changes to the left greens on 8 and  9 at Pine Valley were significant improvements over the original designs.  I also like the removal of the pimple on 18.  

What pimple?

[JESII]

#5 Pebble Beach, clearly.

Even though the "routing" has been so severely comprimised?

[Tom Huckaby]

JES - oh no, I shall not get into this again.  We had at least 5 pages on this a few months ago.  Adam C. if you see this, you are on your honor to leave it alone also.

 

[JESII]

Just a little gasoline Sir Thomas.

By the way, I'm not sure if I got into the thread a few months ago but I agreed with your position all the way through. That position being (if I remember correctly); a better hole supercede's superior routing so long as the routing sacrifice is less substantial than the hole quality difference. I can't really comment specifically to Pebble because I never played the original hole, but from a routing perspective there is really very little difference to me.

Sorry, had to do it.

[Tom Huckaby]

AHA!  Well done you bad boy.

 

Of course I am just as bad... I had to put PB 5 here because Adam put it in the other thread.

TH

[Mike Benham]

#1 at Pasatiempo ...

[Tom Huckaby]

#1 at Pasatiempo ...

Hmmm... is that really an improvement on the original?  I'd definitely agree it's an improvement on what existed for several decades up until recently... but man the original with NO TREES looked pretty damn good.

Same goes for 11 green there also... total recent improvement, but I wonder what the original was like....

TH

[Dan Moore]

No idea if the original was a great hole but the 9th at Royal County Down was once a par 3 before Harry Colt modified it into the great hole it is today.  

really? From where to where? Did that make two par threes in a row, and three out of four? Or was #10 also different?

According to author Paul Daley in a post on this site Colt made the following changes among many others:

"His treatment of the old 8th and 9th holes - both totally blind par-3s to conclude the outward nine, became legion. The 8th tee stood where the current 9th tee is, and the green lay just over and below the hill - barely a 100 yard flick. The 9th tee was positioned somewhere near the middle of the the current 9th fairway and was played over a sandhill, which I assume is not around today, to the present green. He made these holes redundant and built the glorious 9th hole, by converting two blind holes into one."

[Mike Benham]

#1 at Pasatiempo ...

Hmmm... is that really an improvement on the original?  I'd definitely agree it's an improvement on what existed for several decades up until recently... but man the original with NO TREES looked pretty damn good.

Just trying to stir up some discussion on this topic.  However, with the modern technology, the hole playing as a par-5 (and the 30 or so yards added back), regardless of the trees, would not be a worthy hole.

As a longish par-4, you have to start playing straight out of the gate ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike - take all of the trees away and it remains a par 4 even at 500 yards (the way things are determined today), which it would only get to from playing on top of the cartbarn.

In any case it remains funny how a number on the scorecard so changes things...

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

If you're going to muzzle Adam Clayman, then I'll speak up.  

The routing was severly compromised by the new hole, just so that you could get your all important views.

The old hole was a terrific hole.

I'm not so sure that the new hole is that much better that it compensates for the disruption in the routing.

Phil Young,

Agreed on # 16 at ANGC.

You could probably throw in # 7 and # 10 as well.

[wsmorrison]

Sully,

This pimple on the back left of 18 green.  I think Crump wanted to keep people from fading the ball into the green?  I don't know, whatever the idea it was pretty bad!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sully,

This pimple on the back left of 18 green.  

I think Crump wanted to keep people from fading the ball into the green?  

I don't know, [size=4x]whatever the idea it was pretty bad![/size]

Wayne,

Had these words come from TEPaul or some other cretin I could understand, [size=4x]BUT YOU[/size] ?  ?

That pimple is fabulous, it adds character, and more importantly tactical emphasis on the approach and recovery to an otherwise unremarkable green.

Crump always felt that a ridge or mound should be contained within the green to reward good and penalize mediocre to bad shots.

Without that pimple, the green is  nothing more than a forgiving giant bowl, a modified punchbowl.

There are other pictures of the pimple from other angles that are more flattering.

Please, Please retract your ill advised and thoughtless post.

[TEPaul]

"He made these holes redundant and built the glorious 9th hole, by converting two blind holes into one."

DanM:

Uh-huh. He made two redundant blind holes into one blind drive hole on which the fairway is a bit too far out there for most to handle. Or if he didn't make that tee back there some dolt did.

#9 RCD just may be the coolest looking hole in the world by a great architect that just doesn't work well!  

And from the tee it just may be one of a handful of the most awesomely photographable holes in the world (the backdrop of the Mountains of Mourne are drop-dead gorgeous).

[Jim Nugent]

Riviera's 10th hole is better because of technology.  Although likely unintended, it brings many different methods of play into being which were not available at the time of the opening.  I guess short par 4 holes that are now driveable might benefit the most from technological advancements to balls and implements.  There had to be at least one advantage, right?

Wayne -- I went to the LA Open a few times in the early 1990's.  While I didn't hang out at the tenth, I didn't see anyone drive the green back then.  Does that happen much these days?  Did it happen much in those days?  Curious to know how many birdies are made on that hole, the average score during the tournament, how many drive it, etc.

More generally, back then I wondered what all the fuss was about the hole.  Felt Olympic Lake 7, e.g., was a better short par 4, truly worthy of the greatness crown.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Sorry my friend, but while you might enjoy monthly rehashing of 7 page threads, I prefer to move on.  

PB#5 remains a significantly improved golf hole, one that was always supposed to be there.

TH