14th at Bandon Trails vs 10th at Riviera..

[John Kavanaugh]

How similar or dis are these holes...

[Tom_Doak]

They are close to the same length and somewhat similar in terms of layout.  The Riviera hole has its green defended more by a sharp angle, and a slight tilt to the outside; and there is a lot more "safe" room to the left at Riviera than the wooded bank at Bandon Trails.

However they are completely different in terms of topography.  The tenth at Riv is about as flat a great hole as you could find.  The 14th at Bandon Trails has a very high tee, a sharply banked fairway, and an elevated green so you can't see the target much at all unless you've driven somewhere up around the green, which 90% of players can't do.

The 16th at Pacific Dunes has as much or more in common with the tenth at Riviera, although I was not really thinking about it when we were building the hole.

[Mark Leo]

Having played both, I feel qualified to offer an opinion.  The 10th at Riviera is a great hole with wonderful options.  If so inclined, one could attempt to reach the green, although it takes an incredible combination of perfection and luck to actually end up on the putting surface.  The most common approach is from the left side of the fairway, which allows one to club down, and execute some distance control, giving a straight on approach to a very thin and sloped green.  The tee shot is slightly downhill, but the advantage of this hole is that the landing area is relatively flat.  One can play to the right as well, offering a shorter approach, but it's very difficult to hold the green from that side.
I actually heard from the shop assistant's at Riviera that the 14th at Bandon was "inspired by the 10th at Riviera"
That's about all one can say about the similarities.  As opposed to the options at Riviera,there are none at Bandon 14.  The drive is significantly downhill to the hogbacked landing area/fairway which can throw your ball in any number of different directions.  The option of placing the ball with good distance control to an area of the fairway does not exist.  Nor can one lay up, as anything more than a highly-lofted wedge will never hold the green.  Attempting to drive the green at Bandon 14 is an exercise in luck, much exaggerated from trying that same shot at Riviera.

[JohnV]

I haven't seen the 14th at Bandon Trails, but I think that as far as people hit it today, the 14th at Bandon Dunes is similar to Riviera #10.  The angle of the dogleg is sharper, but that just makes up for the extra distance.  With a south wind, I think a player could get a ball riding the wind and possibly get home.  I went for the green once and got within 30 yards on an ok hit.  The bunkering in the fairway gives lots of different layup options like Riviera.  Some better than others.

[Steve Lapper]

I find myself much more in agreement with Tom's assessment of the difference, however I'd be sure to add that the green at Riviera, while quite narrow, is far more receptive to a well hit shot. BT's #14 will only really hold a shot that lands short and rolls it's way on. Anything on the fly is destined to roll off the back left or all the way down through the green.

[Ryan Crago]

I'm with Mark on this one... 14th at BT really only presents one lay up option.  

The beauty of this hole is, IMO, the psychological effect on the player.  Its a short hole, and should, with a pair of well executed shots, have legitimate birdie potential (much like 10 @ Riviera).  

The problem is that its not a birdie hole at all.  The approach is so tremendously difficult from the real only layup option, or if you've gone for the green off the tee and hit anything less than the ABSOLUTELY PERFECT or COMPLETELY LUCKY shot, you'll have nothing, even from greenside.  you may even have trouble getting your GIR, let alone a birdie opportunity.

Though short, its a difficult par 4.  The player (myself included) can get excited about the chance to get a shot back here, and quickly become disappointed, anxious, etc when they realize that they're looking at 5, or worse, pretty easily.

Take your 4 and RUN, to the much more accessible 15th.

rc.
   

[Bill_McBride]

The 6th at Pacific Dunes is another hole at Bandon that looks really easy on the card!  How many have approached from a slightly wrong angle and wound up playing ping pong back and forth across that tiny green?  The chips from hole high right are dificult, and left is worst!

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:  I have two people to thank for the result of the sixth hole at Pacific Dunes.

Jim Urbina left the two mounds on the left edge of the green which I had originally envisioned taking out.  That gives you someplace to aim at when you've missed the green to the right, so you don't worry about falling down the hill to the left so much.

However, originally, the back left of the green fell down even MORE steeply than the bunker at the front left.  My former associate Tom Mead convinced me to bring a lot of fill into that area so the hole would be playable from down there, and Urbina and Tony Russell did the shaping.

[Jim Nugent]

How often does the tenth at Riviera get driven?  When I saw it in the early 1990's, that was a very low percentage shot.  None of the pro's I followed tried it.  

Also curious to know what the scoring average at ten is during the tournament.  Hunyak that I am, I always felt holes like Belfry 10 and Olympic 7 were better short par 4's.