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Mark_F

Is This A Stupid Statement?
« on: February 13, 2006, 05:37:24 AM »
"In a perfect world, golfers don't face uphill shots".

Ron Whitten, in Golf Digest online briefly reviewing Clint Eastwood's course in Carmel.  

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2006, 06:14:07 AM »
Yes.

How many here can think of dozens of great uphill shots and great uphill holes.

I can't imagine what he was thinking when he said that.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

redanman

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2006, 10:06:42 AM »
Yes.

World-class stupid, selfish, biased and unaware of the character of the game. This is a denizen of America's taste?

Therefore:
Pebble Beac's fifth is now clearly far superior.
All NGLA Alps needs is a bulldozer. Wait add Sahara, Double Plateau, Punchbowl and Home to that list, too.

Amazing.  Sadly, not surprizing given the source.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2006, 10:15:35 AM »
Yes, especially given that the statement implies that there would be few if any downhill shots either, since the two basically have to even out before I get back to my car in the parking lot, which is where I started! ::)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 10:27:21 AM »
Tsk tsk Bill, You forgot that Redan. Oh wait, some build them as downhill. Not much military sense there.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2006, 10:33:19 AM »
I wondered what the context of this was.  Well, here it is:


 I may be unforgiven for predicting this, but Tehama Golf Club will probably get a thumbs-down by many critics, because it's built on Bronco Billy terrain. Golf architect Jay Morrish, a master at routing on tough sites, somehow fit 18 holes onto foothill slopes and spiced them up with flashy bunkering and mind-boggling greens.

In a perfect world, golfers don't face uphill shots, but at Tehama eight greens, including two par 3s, are very elevated.


Hmmmm...does anyone really read that to mean Whitten is saying that a golfer should NEVER face an uphill shot?  I think he's just using effect, describing a golf course with SO MANY uphill shots.

And having played Tehama, well, there sure as hell are a lot of them.  It does get old quickly.

So yes, taken just as that one sentence, it is stupid.  But his short review as a whole isn't - it actually captures that course pretty well.  I don't agree with giving it a mild thumbs-up - my thumb would go the other way - but reasonable minds can differ, and the review as a whole was enjoyable and did describe the course decently.

TH

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 10:43:58 AM »
Yes, one of my pet hates is the prevelance of downhill holes in modern golf.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

TEPaul

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 11:33:35 AM »
"Is this a stupid question---"In a perfect world, golfers don't face uphill shots""

Actually, no, it's not a stupid question at all, although the answer may be!  ;)

If one starts to think about that question and deeply, it just may be one of the more fascinating questions (without at first appearing to be) ever asked on here.

Why is that? Because that question very much reflects a tendency, a trend, perhaps even a philosophy or worse yet an attempted standard or even formula to essentially create that kind of thing and offer it in golf course architecture.

And what does that mean? In my opinion, it means that golf course architecture has evolved in some interesting and perhaps unintended and somewhat unacceptable ways over its entire evolution.

Were uphill shots and blind shots acceptable in the old days of golf? They certainly were, matter of fact they were even "prized" in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. So what happened, why did they become unacceptable "in a perfect world"?

Because both man and golf architecture went too damn far in attempting to create a more "perfect", a more "fair", a more "idealized" environment and presentation to the golfer. This is precisely what Max Behr called the "game mind of man" and he felt that tendency on man's part was in fact the enemy of "naturalism" in golf and golf architecture.

Are there uphill situations in raw nature? Obviously, so why remove them in golf if you want to maintain Nature's part in the game (Behr called golf a sport just for this very reason)?

This whole subject can go even deeper and even into what many may feel are beneficial influences on golf architecture. But it may also be seen not to be so beneficial if examined carefully.

Look at one of the premises or principles on Landscape Architecture of English "Naturalist" landscape architect Humphrey Repton for instance. He maintaind one of the desired principles in landscape architecture should be to REMOVE something natural that for whatever reason may not be pleasing to the eye. In other words, even a Humphrey Repton recommended as a goal in LA the intention of creating an "IDEALIZED" version of Nature.

Is that really a good idea in "Naturalistic" golf course architecture? Behr certainly didn't think so. He thought it was a bad and dangerous thing because if golf architecture followed that trend, that tendency, that philosophy, principle, standard or formula too far eventually it may end up at a point where someday, someone may actually try to justify something like "In a perfect world, golfers don't face uphill shots".      ;)

Jump in here, Tom MacWood----this kind of subject and question is right up your alley. How would the British A/C Movement view this kind of thing---this kind of question? I think you and I both know how.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 11:39:20 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2006, 11:39:27 AM »
Yes.

How many here can think of dozens of great uphill shots and great uphill holes.

I can't imagine what he was thinking when he said that.

MM

I can imagine what he was saying, even taken out of context.  He is saying the obvious - that most golfers, including good golfers, prefer to know where they are playing, which is much easier when downhill.  For those who simply like the aesthetics of the golf course, downhill usually works better, too.  

While I can imagine dozens of uphill holes that are great, I can imagine hundreds of dozens of slightly to heavily downhill ones.  The ratio of great uphill holes is well less than downhill ones, and they are often clumsy.  While there are some great ones, it appears that Ron doesn't think that Tehama has any, and that there are too awkward ones.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2006, 11:42:37 AM »
No.

I do believe that Whitten was trying to emphasise the fact that one, possibly two, uphill holes may well be acceptable. However, if you have ever played Tehama, you would come away less than satisfied with more than a third of the holes having some serious elevation to them.

Bob

TEPaul

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2006, 11:59:46 AM »
I'll tell you an interesting historical fact about uphill holes or holes where you have to hit shots way up to and often over things. That trivia fact is that if the original stick routing of PVGC that George Crump did was actually built in it's entirety or if some of the changes were made he wanted had he lived----WHOA---that course would have had some seriously uphill situations and situations where you'd have to drive up or play up and over something.

And look at Ross. How many holes did he route and design with uphill approaches? Just a ton of them, that's all. Matter of fact the uphill or deceptively uphill approach shot is perhaps one of the most deceptively effective architectural applications in all of golf architecture.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2006, 12:04:29 PM »
A disproportionate # of downhill holes makes for a disproportionate # of uphill slogs to a tee.
To say nothing of repetition.
I guess I'm in the minority and like uphill holes,
in fact I don't really care for downhill holes.
but it would seem that there ought to be roughly an equal amount of both unless you torture the golfer with climbs up to tees--or back up to the clubhouse.

Yes Tehama is awkward,but I honestly can't remember if there were more uphill or downhill holes.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2006, 12:37:44 PM »
I can imagine what he was saying, even taken out of context.  He is saying the obvious - that most golfers, including good golfers, prefer to know where they are playing, which is much easier when downhill.  For those who simply like the aesthetics of the golf course, downhill usually works better, too.  

While I can imagine dozens of uphill holes that are great, I can imagine hundreds of dozens of slightly to heavily downhill ones.  The ratio of great uphill holes is well less than downhill ones, and they are often clumsy.  While there are some great ones, it appears that Ron doesn't think that Tehama has any, and that there are too awkward ones.



Gotta disagree entirely with one of my favorite posters.

It's admittedly a bias/preference of mine, but any hole that is downhill automatically starts off in the red. It's gotta be extra special to bring itself back to the forefront.

Ironically enough, some of my favorite holes are downhill, yet rise to the challenge of being extra special - holes like Oakmont's 1st, 10th and 12th.

Anyone that doesn't appreciate the aesthetics of the uphill skyline green is really missing something, imho.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2006, 12:48:06 PM »
It's admittedly a bias/preference of mine, but any hole that is downhill automatically starts off in the red. It's gotta be extra special to bring itself back to the forefront.

But George, wouldn't you say you are in a tiny minority in this preference?

I think Jeff has it correct.  

TH

redanman

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2006, 12:51:04 PM »
I, too tire of downhill holes and the more the more exponential the tiring.

What does that say?

JohnV

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2006, 12:51:31 PM »
Without uphill holes there would be almost no skyline greens.  That alone is a good reason to keep them IMO.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2006, 12:53:27 PM »
I pride myself on being in that tiny minority. :)

I disagree with Jeff's comments on the aesthetics and the ratio. The only reason there might be more great downhill holes is that there are way more downhill holes, period, so the ratio is biased in its own right.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2006, 01:00:12 PM »
George - so you'd agree with his first paragraph but disagree with the second?

I can live with that.

 ;D

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2006, 03:02:22 PM »
Tom and George,

The first sentence is easier to agree with.  While there are no quantified surveys on either, most seem to want to know where they are playing. In my mind, and uphill hole is fine, as long as I generally know where I am going.  Better players want to see how far the pin is from the green edge, etc. none of which we can do uphill in most cases.

The second was a little more subjective. I really don't know the ratio of good up hill to downhill holes, but just suspected that downhill holes are both more numerous, and held in higher esteem, for the visibility (both play and aesthetics) that downhill usually affords.  

I am sure no one wants to evaluate the 300,000 or so US golf holes to prove or disprove my theory!  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2006, 03:03:50 PM »
I am sure no one wants to evaluate the 300,000 or so US golf holes to prove or disprove my theory!

I thought that was what Matt Ward was doing. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_F

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2006, 03:23:00 PM »
Jeff,

Wouldn't one reason for the larger number of great downhill holes be precisely because architects are designing for what most players want, instead of what may be most interesting?

The Sandbelt here has any number of world class uphill holes.  In fact, they may even shade the downhill ones.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2006, 03:29:52 PM »
Jeff,

Wouldn't one reason for the larger number of great downhill holes be precisely because architects are designing for what most players want, instead of what may be most interesting?

The Sandbelt here has any number of world class uphill holes.  In fact, they may even shade the downhill ones.



Well, of course.  As George says, he is in the minority!

Two questions -

First - Who has the right to decide what is "interesting" in golf design, or even good?  The majority rules, no?

Second - If you favor uphill holes (in general) what specifically do you like about them that the majority of golfers don't?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2006, 04:40:51 PM »
First - Who has the right to decide what is "interesting" in golf design, or even good?  The majority rules, no?

??? Doesn't each of us decide for himself? Majority rule? What exactly are we deciding by majority rule? Do we decide what is great art by who sells the most prints? Literature by the NY Times bestseller list?

I guess it depends on what your goals as a designer are.

Second - If you favor uphill holes (in general) what specifically do you like about them that the majority of golfers don't?

I like the blindness. I like the increased difficulty in imagining and executing the shot. I love the aesthetics of a skyline green. I don't like the repetitive nature of many downhill holes. When I first started playing, I liked the fact that most downhill holes "help" the lesser golfer. Now I prefer to do the work on my own.

I'm in the minority because the general consensus is that most golfers prefer the exact opposite of what I just stated.

Then again, most golfers seem to prefer flat, soft and fast to bumpy, firm and fast, which is my preference.

Good thing Tom D understands my wants and needs. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2006, 04:59:07 PM »
....a perfect world could not exist without its inverse or Yangian Expression....a world without uphill would be like contemplating a flower without petals [or pistils without  stamens]....for joy is abundance grown whose heart felt crops are further sown!...let us nurture downhill dildorkian dogma tenderly to strengthen the frail tendrils that someday might climb to reach the light that shines uphill above!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 05:00:33 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jordan Wall

Re:Is This A Stupid Statement?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2006, 07:08:07 PM »
You know honestly without uphill holes it would be hard to have good downhill ones.

That goes for any course.

Plus uphill shots are fun anyways.  You hit the ball and cant see where it lands, and you are so excited to see how close it got.  Awesome

 ;D

On the other hand, the statement did come from a weird source.

The same source that calls Royal Portrush #5 in the world and #11 in the country
?? ?? ??

« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 08:33:14 PM by Jordan Wall »

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