Green Speeds at Victoria

[NAF]

Chris,

Thanks for saving me from looking silly..I obviously was confused.   That is a shame..The Moonah at the National would be a great venue for the tournament.  What do you think of the Ocean Course at the National?  My playing partner and I were not very impressed with the bunkering schemes given what we saw at Norman's design albeit we did not play it.  Just an opinion but it just seems to sit with the landscape that much better..

Noel

[Paul Daley]

T E. Paul:

Thanks for your interest and wise comments from afar about our National Open and its green speeds. As you say, 99% of the time they get it right.

My real concern now is the predictable "over-reaction" when the AGU and host club prepare for the next Australian Open held in Melbourne. Being gun shy of a media contingent waiting to pounce, we can expect safe, benign - albeit, magnificent appearing greens - that encourage the fearless approach from the fairway.

I'm sad for all parties, because this tournament presented an opportunity to focus upon and celebrate the tasteful course restoration work undertaken by Victoria GC - virtually ignored by the press. Not surprisingly, this aspect has been swamped in favour of the more sensational greens issue.

[rpurd]

No complaints from the players now that they are shooting 64's and 65's.  It all came down to being embarassed.....they do not like shooting 78's or 80's.  The course is the course....all have to play it.  If +6 wins.....it wins.  Wouldn't the situation at Bethpage constitute "unfair" to 90% of the field (not being able to reach some fairways off the tee due to the weather??)  And the USGA refused to change the tees.  I think the officials at the Aussie Open caved.....let the cry baby pros walk off if they want to.  It is a DQ all the same!

[Glen_Fergo]

???NAF, sorry I didn't make it clear which of the courses I was talking about! The Moonah Links (TWP) is supposedly purpose built for the Aussie Open and will played there in 2003 and every other year thereafter (I've heard nothing about the financial trouble).

A couple of holes, currently 6, 9 and 10 (they will be re-routed after completion of clubhouse) have the ability for the ball to run back long distances. TWP have stated in their course guide that this is by intentional design.

With the weather condtions (extreme wind) that can prevail in the area the 6th especially (a medium 200yd par 3) across a valley could be very interesting.

 ;)PS  I agree with your assessment of the two National Courses, I far preferred the Norman (Moonah) course. The TWP course, I think, is far less enjoyable and a poor design given what they had to work with and I'm generally not a fan of their courses.

[Chris Kane]

Glen,

When Moonah Links was announced, the AGU said that the Open would be played there in 2002 and then every three years.  Victoria was going to host the 2003 championship (to coincide with their centenary), but their Open was moved forward to this year because ML apparantly wasn't ready.

Going to Moonah Links represents a big risk for the AGU (being so far away from Melbourne: will the corporate market respond favourably?), and the announcement on Sunday showed that the AGU have finally committed to going there.  Prior to then, there were rumours that it wouldn't go ahead.

Financial troubles: no firm evidence, but I've heard rumours from several sources that Moonah Links is running a massive operating loss...not surprising when you can play vastly superior courses nearby like Portsea and The Dunes for almost half the price.  Also, I'm not sure that Australian golfers are ready to pay $75 for one round of golf at a very ordinary course.

Finally, there is no guarantee that the Open will ever return to Moonah Links, as I assume that the AGU aren't formally committed to going there again...rather, its an 'in principle' agreement provided 2003 is a big success.

The only way I can see Moonah Links working as an Open site is if Tiger plays: no trouble getting crowds and sponsors with a scenario like that!

[TEPaul]

rpud:

I'm sure glad you're not the tournment administrator at the Australian Open. Of course some of the best in the world don't like shooting 78s and 80s but no matter about that--are you aware of the incidents of a pro or two putting uphill about 20 feet to the hole or just beyond it and having the ball roll back to his feet a couple of times. That's not what anyone wants in a national championship. If ever there's a time to cancel a stroke play round that would be it.

It's too bad the conditions got to that, it shouldn't have happened but it did and they did the right thing as hard as it must have been for them to cancel Thursday's round!

[Tom Doak]

Bummer, I missed this whole thread while I was in the Virgin Islands NOT thinking about golf.

Like Tom Paul, I was disappointed to see so much posted on "who's to blame."  To the best of my knowledge neither Peter Thomson nor Mike Clayton recontoured any of the greens in question, so there was no "fault" architecturally -- it was all in the course set-up.

As for the set-up, it's probably better not to take a course quite so close to the edge if it's got some steep greens; and it's a very good idea to watch the pin placements carefully if you're going to.

BUT ... I still disagree with the abandonment of that round.  There should have been an official standing at the offending green watching play, and when it got too severe he should have had it syringed for a couple of minutes BEFORE SOMEONE SIX-PUTTED and the competition was skewed.

Think about the alternative example ... if it starts raining on the course, do they make the later golfers putt through the puddles?  Of course not, they come out and use squeegees to regulate the amount of water on the greens.  They could have done the same thing (in reverse) here.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

That's a very interesting point there about syringing to control out of control putting. There's no doubt under the aegis of the rules of golf and the power and control that the tournament committee has over the competition they could have done what you suggested.

I really believe that a guy like Boatright would have just cancelled the day if he saw putts doing that though.

I've sure seen groups halted (not round cancelling) in the middle of competitons to tend to the greens though before they burned up. I mentioned this a few times before about a time in the Philly Open when me and three pros hit our approaches to the 12th green at Merion (all of us above the pin too after all of us said we shouldn't do that).

At that point Dick Bator arrived in a cart with a hose and probably would have swept our balls off the green with the hose if we hadn't run up and marked them first. So we waited while he syringed the green and off he went without a word.

I heard later that a lot of players camplained about the way he was showing up and disrupting play but the tournament committee (GAP) basically said to all of them; "Sorry, we control this competition but nobody controls Bator except Bator."

All four of us above that pin (and after the syringing) putted our balls off that green as hard as we tried not to, to exactly the same spot off the green. But I'll accept that kind of thing on a green like #12 Merion with those speeds when we were coming downhill but to have a ball go uphill to the pin or beyond and come all the way back to you is the time for any tournament committee to cancel the play, in my opinion.

But you're right it certainly doesn't always happen that way and syringing back to sanity is another way to do it I guess! But again, I really do feel that a guy like Boatright would never have stood for something like that and he was a helluva tournament administrator!

[Tom Doak]

Tom:  I agree completely that once somebody has putted up to the hole and had it roll back to them a couple of times, the competition is basically ruined.  That's why everything should be match play!

But what I was saying is if a competition committee has really committed themselves to conditions "on the edge," it's their duty to monitor the borderline greens and to keep them under control so they don't have to cancel an entire day's play.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

These are some interesting point you make and some of the little nuances of tournaments and tournament administration many people either aren't familar with or don't fully understand.

Sure, if the Australian Open was at match play those over the top few greens (balls coming back at players after putting from below pins) wouldn't have mattered so much and the committee has the option of moving pins during the course of play (match play). But not so with stroke play once a single competitor has played a particular hole!

Of course it can be said this is why golf should be played at match play but a field of 156 (today's pro fields) would take about a solid week to get done and would require on site qualifying to get down to 64. In some of the old match play tourneys the draws were 128!!

And the thing about a putt going uphill to a cup--all the way to it or just beyond it--stopping and rolling back a good deal or to a player, you're so right, that's about the ONLY place I would really draw the line and say that a stroke play round has got to be called off.

That one thing is just about the total functional definition of unfair play in stroke play golf, in my opinion, and I think the opinions of stroke play tournament administrators. The only other one I know of like that would be winds so strong that balls at rest will not stay at rest! That too is reason to cancel a stroke play round--maybe even any round--as cup placement is not really the single issue.

It's sort of odd though that the Australian tourney administrators didn't see that some pins were over the top unfair. Apparently the winds weren't strong but they must have been so close to the edge right from the beginning. On all our big tournaments we go out ahead of play though and test those pin positions for this kind of problem. I can't imagine the Australian tourney committee didn't do that before any player got to a hole. Maybe they did and didn't pick it up but, man they must have been close to the edge when the pins were cut in and the greens were cut!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

I think all this "it should be match play" if the greens are over the top stuff is very naive.  So who's gonna be the first person to concede if neither one of you can stop the ball next to the hole, or hole it?

[Mike_Duffy]

Greg Norman arrived back in Oz yesterday for his annual visitation and verbal broadside at golf Downunder.

He said that "heads  should roll" over the debacle enacted at Victoria Golf Club last Thursday during the opening round of the national clhampionship. He went on to say that he was watching the telecast with senior officials from the PGA Tour who he said "couldn't stop laughing", or words to that affect, at the cancellation of the first day's play because the greens were deemed unplayable. He went on to say that Australian golf was now regarded as something of joke overseas.

Mr Norman may well be correct about heads rolling. Information provided to me by usually reliable sources over recent days suggests that the long-serving CEO of the AGU Colin Philips will be take a well-earned "retirement" sooner rather than later.

The tournament committee of the AGU has been given a "please explain" demand to next meeting of delegates.

Additionally, Kerry Stokes, principal owner of the 7 Network, is threatening legal action against the AGU for loss of advertising revenue resulting from the cancellation of most of the first day's telecast, and depleted ratings for the remaining three days due they believe, to the lack of interest following the comical scenes of the first day.

The 7 Network in turn, is being asked to pay compensation to several overseas television networks who paid re-telecast rights to the Channel 7 organisation. Apparently the only "out" clause related to inclement weather preventing play.

Behind the scenes a cobweb is being spun following the debacle at Victoria Golf Club last Thursday, that will have severe repercussions if my informants are correct.

One thing is certain - we will never see again in Australia a golf course taken to the precipice of sanity.  The television interests will ensure that the events of last Thursday are never replicated.

[Chris Kane]

Tom Paul,

One factor that contributed in some way to the fiasco on Thursday was pin-positions (I'm sorry, hole location!) on some of the holes.

The story I've heard goes something like this:

The normal procedure when a tournament is held at Victoria is for the Victoria GC superintendant and the PGA Tour Head of Operations to set the hole locations the night before, a task that takes around three hours, as to ensure that they get it right.  On sandbelt greens (which can get incredibly dicey with some wind), spending this much time is imperitive.

However, at the Australian Open, apparantly the AGU insisted that the pins would be set on the Thursday morning, with their reasoning that they had "done in that way for the past twenty years".  So the AGU Executive Director, as well as the PGA Tour representative and the Victoria greenkeeper, set out on Thursday morning and completed the task in 50 minutes.  

Setting 18 hole locations in 50 minutes does not leave a lot of time to ensure that each location is safe.

The allegation is that there was disagreement about eight locations, and the PGA Tour/Victoria won the argument on six of those.  The two holes that the AGU insisted on keeping were holes 3 & 13.  

Which were the holes which caused the most problems?  3 & 13.  The 3rd hole was where the balls were horseshoeing, leading to the AGU cancelling play.

If the story is true, we can see that the AGU were asking for trouble from the moment they got to Victoria Golf Club.  

[TEPaul]

RichG:

I don't think you understand exactly what Tom Doak said when he mentioned above, ".....the competition is basically ruined. That's why everything should be match play."

I take that to mean not a reason to go over the top on putting surfaces because it's match play but at least in match play when that happens the whole competition (or day) is not basically ruined.

Under the rules of golf a tournament committee can move a pin during competition in match play but not in stroke play. Once a player comes through a hole in stroke play that option doesn't exist any more but it does in match play.

[TEPaul]

Chris Kane:

Very interesting info! Thanks for that. Tournament administration of any kind is always interesting to me and unfortunately particularly when things go terribly awry. I hate to say it but it's always good to learn from the mistakes of others.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Thanks for the info, Tom P.  I didn't know that either.  It would seem to me, however, to be pretty impractical, except for the very few very big tournaments that have the luxury of having committee members sprinkled throughout the course.  In 99% of all match play situations, most golfers do not have easy access to the "Committee" and wuold be just as befuddled (dar I say "stymied"?) as the players were at Victoria.   I also still think that Tom D.'s "everything should be match play" is just a throwaway line that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, except as an eccentric point of view.