Green Speeds at Victoria

[Josh Taylor]

Just to give you guys an early head-ups before the Golf Channel telecast starts, my brother just called me from Australia to let me know that play has been suspended because the greens are too fast!!!  I dont know any other details, thats all he could tell me.

[Justin_Ryan]

They have just cancelled play, with 36 holes planned for Sunday.  The excuse offered by Colin Phillips of the AGU was that if they didn't cancel play and water the greens immediately, then they could lose them.  It is currently 19c with a pleasant breeze, so that sounds like a great lot of BS to me.  The course was looking fantastic though.

[Danny Goss]

Robert Allenby said he was happy to continue on and did not seem too worried. However Charles Howell 111 was 10 over so he may have been happy! However Channel 7 and Jack Newton seem to be looking for scalps here.

Dwayne Russell just said (sarcastically) on ABC Radio that there has long been a competition between sandbelt clubs to see who can produce the fastest greens - and Victoria just won!

So prepare for plenty of "I told you so's"  in tomorrows papers.

So to any of the GCA boys who were out there today - how bad were they? And where does the buck stop with this one?

[TEPaul]

Cancelling play for too high greenspeeds? I've absolutely never heard of anything like that! That's a first! I'm not too sure I'd want to be on that tournament committee today. It had to be the tournament committee that suspended play. Who's the Australian Open tournament committee?

[Glen Ferguson]

Shouldn't you be working on a new golf course somewhere? Does Tom L know what you get up to when his back is turned?

I had a hit with Steve at Hurstville on Tuesday and had a good chat with him.

Glad to hear your still with us in spirit (No Septic accent yet I hope!!)

Just to give you guys an early head-ups before the Golf Channel telecast starts, my brother just called me from Australia to let me know that play has been suspended because the greens are too fast!!!  I dont know any other details, thats all he could tell me.

[CHrisB]

Was it suspended because the wind was blowing the ball around on the greens, or simply because the greens were too fast for some of the pins?  They must have seen some pretty scary things to decide to cancel.

[Josh Taylor]

Fergo,

I saw your name on here the other day and wondered if it could be the same GF.  I guess it is. Good to hear from you.

I got the message today that you played with Steve.

I will be back in Sydney on Dec 23rd for 2 weeks.  We will have to catch up.

Its 8.30pm here now, Tom doesnt expect me to be in the office then, but he is picking me at 615am tomorrow for a site visit.  

Im sitting here listening to the cricket live on the interent!!!!  Plenty of Aussie left in me still.

Josh

[Glen_Fergo]

To our friends in the US it's not that hard to comprehend!! They try to get the greens as fast as possible without being stupid but don't always succeed.

Because of the terrain it becomes a case where going downhill on some of the greens the ball will not stop and going uphill the ball comes back to your feet. It only has to happen on one hole to stop everything.

You all may recall the Aussie Open some years ago at Royal Melbourne where the players basically walked off!?! It only one bad pin placement and a bit of wind from the wrong direction.

Some highlights from the practice rounds here showed players above the hole just starting the ball rolloing and just walking to the front of the green to wait for the ball.

It surprising isn't that they weren't in danger of losing the greens yesterday and that all over the world amateur bodies that run Opens never seem to learn from their mistakes!!!?!??!

[Danny Goss]

Apparently they were not watered last night nor this morning. It appears that many players felt they were too fast....to the point of being "unfair" with a 2 foot downhill putt rolling 20 feet past. However quite a few had finished their rounds. The wind was certainly there but more like a breeze.

[Glen_Fergo]

Good job too! Take the best the US has to offer but always remember they is no place in the world like Oz!!!

Fergo,

I saw your name on here the other day and wondered if it could be the same GF.  I guess it is. Good to hear from you.

I got the message today that you played with Steve.

I will be back in Sydney on Dec 23rd for 2 weeks.  We will have to catch up.

Its 8.30pm here now, Tom doesnt expect me to be in the office then, but he is picking me at 615am tomorrow for a site visit.  

Im sitting here listening to the cricket live on the interent!!!!  Plenty of Aussie left in me still.

Josh

[CHrisB]

They must have let the USGA set up the course...

I played in a tournament at St. Andrews a few years back where the wind blew so hard that the balls were moving on the green and play was delayed; that's why I was curious whether the suspension was wind-aided, or strictly due to the greens.

I played a college tournament once where, on one hole, you didn't leave the green until you made a 6-7 footer; each miss came back to your feet.  At another tournament in the wind, a recall one player putting it into the water, and another lipping out a 3-footer which ran entirely off the green.

It's what nightmares are made of!

Will they cancel today's scores (I noticed a few guys finished), much to Charles Howell's delight, or pick it up where they left off?

[Dr Kildare]

Hi Josh,

Look me up on the Gold Coast over Xmas if you're up this way.

Chris,
All scores cancelled.
18 Friday
18 Saturday
36 Sunday.

[Mike_Cirba]

Did anyone suggest that these guy might just try to keep the ball below the hole?

[Dr Kildare]

The story I read was that they we even unable to mark the ball.

[Mark F]

The greens were pretty firm and fast, but it was mainly the pin positions on a couple of holes (3, 6, 11, 14, 16) that caused the problems.  Oherwise you just had to make sure you hit the right shot, and we all know the most important piece of equipment a golfer needs isn't a 400cc driver or polyurethane flubber ball, but the matter inhabiting the space between the ears, consequently leaving the programmed robots searching for a new computer chip.

It was actually a group playing the third hole that called for a ruling on whether the course was playable, because they couldn't get balls to stop near the pin.
 
Obviously the AGU wanted the course set up with a reasonable degree of difficulty, as befitting a national championship, and, no doubt, when Stuart Appleby shot 10 under par on Tuesday they choked on their gin and tonics and locked the sprinkler hoses in the maintenance shed.

Then again, it was overcast and a little drizzly earlier in the week, and they probably thought it would bucket down anyway.

Who'd want to be a course superintendant?

[TWP]

Story By: Mike Clayton Exclusive to Sportal / PGATour.com.au

Our most important tournament begins this Thursday at the Victoria Club in the middle of the world famous Melbourne sandbelt.At tournament times, all of Melbourne's courses are known for their speed and their firm ground. At times - most notably at Royal Melbourne in 1974 and 1987 and Kingston Heath in 1983 - the courses have had the players tearing their hair out. They are setup right on the edge of sanity and that is the way the best players ought to like it. It is only then that most are eliminated before a shot is hit. The practice rounds alone are enough to fill them with dread.This week the course is as close to that edge as I have ever seen. The greens were actually the color of their title a week ago … but no more. The players will be shocked to find them actually brown and fearsomely hard. There will be no need for the pitch mark repairer but the players will need the lightest of touches with the putter and the clearest of heads when they chose their lines off the tee and the clubs into the green.Rarely is this the case in professional golf these days as the courses are set up predictably with an emphasis on fairness that has them and the type of golf they demand bordering on boring. A well programmed robot could play most of them.The superintendents of the sand belt have always resisted the prescribed formula and the game here is better for it. The players may feel like they have been through fifteen rounds with a fearsome boxer but the spectators will be more than entertained, especially if they can recognize quality shotmaking.Only very few could win this week and the most likely are the ones who have grown up on the sandbelt. Perhaps it is no coincidence that they are also our best players and there can be no questioning the quality of their education.Robert Allenby and Stuart Appleby are the two at the top of our tree and neither will be surprised by what they find this week. Appleby is the most patient of players and nothing will be more important this week.Allenby has had the best of his ten years on the tour and the second half of the season saw him rarely out of the top ten, although he couldn't manage to find a win.One who attracts little attention is Geoff Ogilvy but he made almost a million dollars in the United States this year and he is a member of the club. That he knows it is obvious but he also understands how to play it and that is much more relevant.Unlike Appleby, he is not known for his patience and if he is to win he will need to show a little more than he has in the past. Last year he had a hope of winning but a wild iron into the twelfth green cost him his chance. He is, however, young and he is an intelligent player. This week ought to teach him much and the patience he needs to win here is the final piece of the bigger puzzle.


Any comments now Mike?    What role (if any) did you play in this?

[Dr Kildare]

Mike did say it was set up on the edge of sanity.

I guess we can expect over the weekend to see all the players wearing their hankerchiefs on their heads with the four cornere tied, and looking decidedly like a Monty python sketch.
Oh what i'd give to see Allenby and Howell doing the fish slapping dance.

[Mike_Duffy]

:(Today was the perfect autumnal day in Melbourne. Temperature 19C, a zephyr of a breeze blowing in off the bay, an immaculate course and what do the players do - walk off!

I was astounded when I heard the announcement on the course PA. Specifically it appeared to be the third green that was the root cause of the problem.

It would seem that the platoon of whingeing pros couldn't stop the ball on a downhill putt.

Some years ago I recall something similar happening at Royal Melbourne, on the third hole of the composite course. However, on that particular day, there was a howling norhterly wind and the balls just wouldn't stop - they kept rolling back to the foot of the green.

Today there was no excuse as far as I could see. I watched some play at the third hole, and yes, downhill putts were a nightmare. Nothing unusual that on that particular hole.

I have to question myself why I continue to patronise golf tournaments in Australia - and particularly in Melbourne. Hardly a tournament goes by in Melbourne without one or 50 golfers complaining about: the greens; the fairways; the crowds; the flies; the wind; the rain; the bunkers; the television cameras; green speeds (too fast - too slow); lack of appearance fee; appearance fees being paid to the wrong people; sponsors not looking after them properly; the hotel they booked into; the food, the drink; their caddy; the courtesy car and one particular occasion "those dreadful Aussie accents" (Pommie pro - should have heard HIS accent!); and so the list of complaints goes on ad infinitum.

I think I'll spend the next three days watching the proceedings on television - the professionals just aren't worth supporting any longer.

Most golfers would have given their eye teeth to play Victoria today in the most pleasant of November conditions - except some of the professionals. Enough said, I'm out and I'm staying out.

[Pete_Pittock]

At the 3rd hole a player putted up and the ball stopped a foot short. As he walked up to mark the ball started rolling back towards him and finished 30 feet away. He putted four feet past the hole and the ball returned to him. He putted to three feet past the hole and the ball again rolled back to him.
There is a very light breeze and I guess the greens have lost whatever moisture was responsible for allowing a ball to stop.
The commentators were applauding putts which finished near the hole.

[Chris Kane]

TWP (Bob Brooke, Dickie Nee, whatever other sad names you can think of).

Interesting how your organisation is quite happy to fraudulently accept credit for the work at Victoria (evidenced by Thomson's article in the Age yesterday), but is quick to blame someone else when everything falls apart.

I could ask the same question of TWP: as the consulting architects to the AGU (and therefore the group advising on how to set-up the course), what role did you play in this?

[Mark_F]

Chris,
Did you see the hysterical voxpop on Channel 7 with Thomson?  
He blamed the whole shenanigans on an apparent "contest" between Sandbelt superintendents to have the fastest greens!

He's obviously hoping that the aggrieved public don't realise that it is the AGU that have the final say on course set-up, surely, and isn't he the AGU's Aus. Open "Course consultant"
The man could find his way out of a maze blindfolded.  And handcuffed.  And kneecapped.

TWP (Bob Brooke, Dickie Nee, whatever other sad names you can think of).

Interesting how your organisation is quite happy to fraudulently accept credit for the work at Victoria (evidenced by Thomson's article in the Age yesterday), but is quick to blame someone else when everything falls apart.

I could ask the same question of TWP: as the consulting architects to the AGU (and therefore the group advising on how to set-up the course), what role did you play in this?

[Mark_Huxford]

Interesting piece by Peter Thompson written before(?) play began. Mentions the 3rd at RMGC fiasco.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/11/20/1037697737519.html

Also, event cut to 54 holes.

http://www.holdenaustralianopengolf.com

[Mike Clayton]

TWP
Am I to assume this is a question from someone from the company of the same name or someone trying to score a cheap point.
Perhaps if we both post under our own names we could discuss it. Until I know who I'm talking to I won't bother to answer the question.

[RickHart]

I am an infrequent visitor to this site but have definitely detected an unbelievably myopic perception to the golf architectural firm TWP, particularly Peter Thomson, while an almost sycophantic adoration is directed to other designers. The credibilty of comments forwarded about a near disasterous course management issue on the Australian Open at Victoria Golf Club would be enhanced enormousy if  contributors could dismiss thier prejudices about TWP and possibly admit that it was the course management that was(?) in error in an over-enthusiastic attempt to  portray Australian golf exactly as this regular contributors to this site have loudly proclaimed it should be presented.

[Shane Gurnett]

Rick, the design merits of TWP courses is not being discussed on this thread. That is an entirely different issue, and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. If that's what you wish to bring into this forum, then by all means start a new thread. I'm sure it will attract considerable debate.

Clearly todays results were due to a combination of slope, firmness, hole positioning and speed of the greens, the cumulative effect of each indivual component being open to discussion.

My opinion, for what its worth? I think the firmness of the greens was great, but due to a combination of the green speed, wind and some poorly placed pins the end result was far from satisfactory. Can we blame TWP for that? I wouldn't think so. The AGU however must take responsibiity for the course set up as it is their event. As I understand their relationship with Peter Thompson, then he may have some accountability to answer for. Please correct me if this is not the case.

Australian courses ought to be set up as firm tests of golf; thats they way they were designed to play. I doubt if anyone (and not just on this site) would want to see the national championhip of this country decided on a lush, overwatered target golf course where strategy plays little or no part. Heck, we've had 8 months of that on the US Tour already.

I think the key question is "Who is prepared to take the responsibility, if anyone, for what happend at Vic today?". Maybe it was just one of those things that sometimes happens. Dont forget that the qualifying round at Goonawarra three weeks ago had to be abandoned for the very same reason. Everyone seemed to take that incident in their stride.