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PThomas

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Poppy Hills?
« on: February 08, 2006, 09:54:47 PM »
Sir Bob's thread made me think of Poppy...the course's contract with the tour is apparently up after this year, btw

whaddya all think of it?  
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

A_Clay_Man

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 11:24:09 PM »
Poppy Hills is dear to my heart. Not from an architectural perspective but from a public golfer's.

When I moved to San Jose someone advised me to get the NCGA card so I could play Poppy for $45. No sooner did those words leave that persons mouth did I sieze the opportunity.
On my first visit, I was treated like royalty by a gentleman who is no longer there. It was cold and rains hit me starting on the front nine. The gentleman, an assistant pro, not only got me towels, so I could take a hot shower. He gave the best way to travel and even told me where the speed traps were.
Priceless!

As for the course. I suppose I've been around her dozens of times. Mostly playing but some caddying too. To sum up the course in a phrase; It penalizes aggresive play.

I never saw the original greens, they had been softened due to the number of complaints. Not normal people's complaints, the pros.

There's tons of variety, even if it is somewhat subtle. The greens are very tricky with subtle shifts in contrary slopes. Making learning them an endeavor which takes alot of rounds. Many people do not get that many cracks at her, so they go away frustrated.

All in all Poppy doesnt get mentioned with the best the peninsula has to offer. But if you are an average public golfer, it's likely your Sistine chapel. At least they let you pray there.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 11:26:30 PM by Adam Clayman »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 12:42:41 AM »
I've played Poppy Hills a few times, including a few rounds before the greens were modified.  I'm sure #5 and #15 greens were modified.  #5, a medium par 4 with a water hazard short right of the green, had the wildest green I had seen to that point.  #15, a 200 yard par 3, had "an elephant buried" in the green, a huge mound.  Nowadays, I would have probably enjoyed those features.

It has always been a beautiful walk, close to the ocean in the Del Monte Forest.  A very pretty place.

The course has some bad holes.  I don't like #8, a short par 4 with a right angle turn only 200 yards or so from the tee.  I especially dislike #12, a par 5 dogleg right.  The hole turns right about 225 yards from the tee, and 10 yards right of the fairway is OB the entire length of the hole.  They used to have a waste bunker right where it looked like you should hit the ball.

All in all a decent place.  A Doak 4 or 5.

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 01:43:03 AM »
I wonder if this course was located somewhere other than the Monterey Peninsula how peoples opinions of it would change, if at all.

Personally, I have always enjoyed playing there even though it doesnt stack up to its neighbors.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2006, 01:43:32 AM by Evan_Green »

Scott Seward

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Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 01:56:55 AM »
The contract is not up. That bit of information is incorrect. The contract is for three years and rolls over every year.

The link to Ron Whitten's review elsewhere is at least 3-4 years old.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 09:31:11 AM »
Once again Adam comes through with the wisdom - "the public course golfer's sistine chapel" - I really like that.

Because it really is.  Even today, just become an NCGA member and the bang for the buck is VERY good - play a beautiful PGA Tour course at the price of your local muni.

I've always valued the course very much just for this reason, just like Adam.  Thus I tend to cringe when it is dissected and ripped - which is darn near always by those for whom price isn't an issue.

Taking price out of the equation, it's clear that Poppy Hills is the "worst" course inside the 17 Mile Drive.  Or maybe it's 2nd worst, depending on how one feels about Spanish Bay.  Unfortunately, that's how too many people think about it.... instead of more like 10th BEST in the Bay Area, or however it would fall as it really is a pretty darn good golf course.

TH

MarkT

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 11:51:28 AM »
I couldn't count the number of times I have played Poppy. The first was when it first opened and green fees were $35 for NCGA members.

I had a love/hate relationship with Poppy. Loved to go play it, hated it after playing it. But after they removed the "goofiness" from the course, I now really enjoy it.

But take my opinion for what it's worth, unlike John Kirk, I really like #8 and #12 ;D

peter_mcknight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 01:31:37 PM »
When I played the course, it was so terribly overwatered that it took any sort of enjoyment out of playing the course.  There were at least two times on the front nine I had to bob and weave out of the sprinkler system.  Considering the fact that residents of Monterey, Pacific Grove, Carmel, Seaside, etc. had to live with water restrictions, to see the absolute wasting of water on a course that clearly didn't need it that particular day galled me.  It was an unnecessary dark hue of green that was so striking after seeing the rest of the peninsula.

I'm not a big fan of manufactured water hazards, so seeing the fake ponds on holes 5 and 10 stuck out like sore thumbs.  Without the pond on 5, I would really like the hole, but it seems so contrived.

I would like to see the 2d green brought back together rather than the two smallish greens that it is today, then that hole would become a pretty decent par 3.

If somebody could provide the rationale behind the 18th hole, I'd like to hear it--to me, it looked like a par 5 was placed there to ensure par was 72 and to have another course inside the gates conclude with a par 5 like Pebble and Spanish Bay.  The tree about 20-30 yards short of the green and on the right looks so misplaced.

I did love the walk around the Del Monte forest, however.  It was so peaceful and tranquil.  However, compared to Pebble, Spanish Bay and Spyglass Hill, it is a much more difficult walk (8 to 9, 9 to 10 come to mind).

johnk

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 01:37:25 PM »
Poppy is great, and is a top bay area course.  It's tough.  Play from the blues, and call me back.  The par 3's are like 175, 186, 210 and 225.  They are usually ranked as some of the toughest on tour.  Now resistance to scoring is not the only reason why it's a great course.

RTJ II took some risks - some paid off, and others... in any case, he got a lot out of the location, but the routing does have a lot of doglegs.  In fact, the only criticism I find useful from the pros was Scott Simpson's famous line critizing the preponderance of the doglegs:

"Poppy Hills - even the men's bathroom has a double dogleg"

And it's funny because it's true!  :)

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 12:36:13 AM »
I never thought about whether or not the routing was the most effective use of the property and in taking a look at the Google Aerial linked below, the doglegs don't look nearly as severe as they seem at ground level.

It is a course where you are only guaranteed 18 level lies, with many off camber shots to play.  The course plays long as the forest is always damp (I believe they are required to use reclaimed water so regardless of whether there are restrictions of fresh water for the residences, reclaimed water is abundant).

The greens are large, and for the most part it is difficult to get the ball close to the hole and therefore I usually have a problem scoring.

Poppy Hills, Sypglass, CPC and MPCC Aerial
"... and I liked the guy ..."

A_Clay_Man

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2006, 06:47:25 AM »
Maybe Scott Seward can correct me, but, I've been under the impression that the site was used as a dumping ground for years. Not garbage, but all the extra fill they would pull out of the ground to build all those beautiful homes. Combine that with amount of clay found in the forest, and you get a tag like sloppy hills.

Scott Seward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2006, 07:47:35 PM »
The dumping ground is up Lopez Road a little bit.

I think the sloppy hills reference is because our course can be wetter than others in the winter because there aren;t many hours of direct sun.

We are very sensitive to clueless announcers stating that our course is easier due to five par 5s. If you look at the scores coming in, players are going low at Spy (inexplicably) and Pebble. Of our five par 5s, only 10 and 18 should be easy birdie holes.

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2006, 07:57:08 PM »
The complaints of over-watering are legion, but one of the reasons is, that by saving water one year could see one's allocation reduced accordingly in each succesive year. In addition the salt water intrusion into the reclaimed water system, necessitates the flushing of the greens with potable water, hence some pretty soggy conditions.

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2006, 07:42:24 PM »
I too fondly recall breaking in my new NCGA card at Poppy hills for $45 (at the time) it was a pilgramage we always relished coming down from the Bay area.  Not as good as a trip to Pasitiempo, but a lot more affordable.

What do you pay nowdays at Poppy as an NCGA member?  Also how much does Pasitiempo cost now days?  We used to go down and play De LaVega (?sp) in Santa Cruz as well.  Just wondering for all you Bay area guys how much some of those courses command in fees nowdays.

When we were stuck up in the public golf wasteland of the Bay area playing such gems at Summit Pointe you welcome the escape.
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2006, 07:52:08 PM »
I have never played there. That is amazing but I have looked at the course and hit practice balls there. It is a pretty good looking course in a neighborhood of riches. The overwatering is legit and frankly is a problem at every course on the peninsula.

Steve Pieracci

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 09:07:50 PM »
De Laveags is ~$56 for non Santa Cruz residents.  Poppy is $52 weekday, $66 Weekend for NCGA members.  

I have not played De La since the renovation to a par 70.  I heard they did a nice job.  

Poppy is also a go to destination for me.  If I am going to play hooky from work, I am probaply going to Poppy for the challenge and the price.

John K is correct.  Play it from the blues then come talk to us.  It is much more challenging from the blues.  

johnk

Re:Poppy Hills?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2006, 12:31:44 AM »
Today, while the pros were at Pebble, I got to play Poppy Hills with same pins and tees as the pros used on Saturday.  The only difference was that the greens were not rolled this morning.

I've attended the tournament for 9 years, and I used to think that the courses were set up relatively easy so the rounds would play as fast as possible, and the ams would have a chance.  That may have been true 4 years ago, but it sure isn't now.

13 Pins were all the way back on the large greens AND tucked far left or right.  #2, #10, #15, #16, #17 were the only pins NOT in the the most difficult and inaccessible location on the green.  There were no front pins at all.  The blue tees were set full-length.  The flags were all white today, with no depth indication (after about 3 holes, you knew where the pin would be anyways - suckertown... )

Additionally, the fairways were mostly dry, but not generating much roll at all.  But the greens were as firm as Poppy Hills can be.  Balls would take big bounces, and our 4-some (playing today to 4, 6, 9 (me), 12 hcps) usually couldn't generate a enough spin to go at any of the tucked pins safely.

It was night and day from the way I played it just 10 days before - when the course was very, very wet and the greens were virtual velcro dartboards.  I was pretty impressed with what they can do to get a course relatively firm. (I'm sure the good weather they mostly had in the meantime helped.)

Anyways, the mental difficulty of playing 8 or 9 tucked pins in a row is pretty severe for this average golfer.

In the end, our groups scores were 86 (incl eagle on 10), 88 (me), a 93, and the 12 hcp had a bad day and shot 106.

As if I didn't know before, I can tell you that Poppy Hills is plenty difficult, and the tour setup is a good 3 strokes harder than an average day, and the middle of the road tour players for whom it's is basically a par-69 are really, really good.  :)

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