Pebble Beach vs. Pacific Dunes (redux)

[TEPaul]

Tim:

I think this site should kick in to give a prize to whomever can finally get Pat Mucci to come to his senses and give up on his ridiculous anti-bais campaign on here.

I think it should be an all expenses paid long weekend at any course of the prize winner's choice. I might even call Heidi Klum to see if she'll go along for the ride.

Your post is so logical one would think you might be the prize winner--but we'll have to wait and see what the reaction will be from this amazingly intransigent man!

Frankly, I think a surtax should be charged to Pat Mucci every time the word "bias" appears in another one of his posts.

[Robert Raines]

Tom Doak,

I thought some of the remarks weren't directed at you for being happy for the recognition your work has received.

It seemed that some posters had been critical of Donald Trump for touting his work yet were giving you a pass for the act of touting yours.

I don't think the criticism had anything to do with the quality of your work, you personally or the quality of Trumps work.  
I thought the criticism was directed at posters on this site for not applying a fixed standard to all parties.

I wasn't aware that Donald Trump was an architect and involved in designing the golf courses he develops.
I thought he hired architects to design his courses.
That's why I'm puzzled by comparisons of his work to your work.  When did he start designing golf courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

There have been numerous instances when people were highly critical of Rees's and Fazio's courses, without ever having seen them.  What would you call that ?

What do you call a criticism of a golf course, sometimes mean spirited and personal, when that criticism has no basis in fact ?  When the individual making the critical remarks has never seen the property !

What do you call it when an individual says that Rees's courses don't make you think ?

Tim, I know TEPaul has his head in the sand, but tell me you still see the light of reason.

TEPaul,

If you would address the above questions, without skirting around them, I would appreciate it, thanks.

Tom Doak,

My comments weren't directed toward you.  As I've said, you have every right to be ecstatic that Pacific Dunes has received such lofty acclaim.  My comment was directed toward those who bashed Trump for "touting" his projects, and were favorably disposed toward your doing the same thing.  My comment had nothing to do with the relative merits of your projects versus Trump's projects, only the lack of consistency with some of the posters.  I was attempting to suggest that perhaps a double standard might exist within the minds and hearts of the participants on this site.

Reading TEPaul's posts is like reading Tass before the fall of the Berlin wall.  

[Dan Kelly]

Reading TEPaul's posts is like reading Tass before the fall of the Berlin wall.  

I think you mean Pravda. But I could be wrong.

How about this, as a ban-the-BIAS compromise? How about if you, Patrick Mucci Jr., pledge to comment no further on episodes of GCA bias up to and including today, November 26, 2002 -- and limit your remarks to BIAS demonstrated here subsequent to this day? (Aren't you a little tired of typing these words [among others]: "What do you call it when an individual says that Rees's courses don't make you think?"?)

This is an entirely reasonable proposal, which I'm sure we'd all be happy to endorse.

Right, boys? Patrick is waiting for your answer!

Tom I -- Place that call to Ms. Klum. Thanks.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

Let's take a situation where someone bashes a Rees Jones course you have played and enjoy. Maybe the person bashing the course has seen it. Maybe they haven't.

In either case, wouldn't it make more sense to share with everyone what you like about the course than going off on some tangent about how the critic is biased?

Pat, the fact is that most people haven't seen most famous courses. Truly speaking, very few people have seen more than a few Top 100 courses. Very few people have spent time across the pond. Even fewer - myself included - have not made it "Down Under". In short, while we all admire the travel resume of someone like Tom Doak, most people don't have the time or money to so widely sample the world of golf architecture.

Hell, right here in Cleveland, I meet all kinds of people who have never played Pebble Beach or Pine Valley or Shinnecock. I've even got an American friend who is a member of the R&A and has never played Oakmont.

So, if you are fortunate enough to be familiar with a course, isn't it far better to share your knowledge than ranting about how some critic is biased? Wouldn't we all learn more?

Offline someone suggested that you are friendly with Rees Jones. So, it got me to thinking: why doesn't Pat Mucci ever say anything good about Rees' work? Why all the diversionary talk about other peoples' bias?

Pat, I've been fortunate enough to see many famous golf venues. I started working on that thirty years ago. There is no reason in the world for me to be biased against Rees or Tom Fazio or Jack Nicklaus. If you or someone else thinks they have done something special, I want to hear about it. I suspect most people here do too. It would be far more interesting than wasting time on whether a picture Tommy Naccarato has taken is somehow unfair to Rees, don't you think?

Tom Paul:

Did you happen to see Heidi Klum has just announced she is getting divorced?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

TEPaul has no use for Heidi Klum, she's not dead yet, and she hasn't been named a full partner in C & C either, forget him.

I on the other hand suffer no BIAS against her.
The only thing I want to hold against her is..... ME.

Tim, I haven't criticized anyone who has played a Rees Jones golf course, who made critical comments about it, or criticized any of the features on it.  

If an individual has played a golf course and provides their evaluation of it, good, bad or indifferent, that is their valid opinion, and I haven't objected to it.

I have continually asked for objectivity and fairness, no more, no less, and when I perceived that either or neither existed, I said so.

I did get into lengthy discussions on Atlantic.
Some, who had never seen the course, were critical, and I thought it absurd that someone who never saw the course was evaluating it, and criticizing its playability as well.
I explained my position, on a hole by hole basis.
You may even recall the crossover issue, which I linked to the crossovers at Merion.  You may also recall the multiple tee issue which I linked to the multiple tees at Aronomink.
I believe my opinions with respect to Atlantic are well documented.  I gave the book, written by the developer, Lowell Schulman to many on this site.
"The Miracle on Breeze Hill" explains in great depth, that which I had tried to communicate on this site over a long period of time.  I've only played Atlantic about 100 times, so I have a little more familiarity with it than those who have never played it, and I tried to discuss the course as best I could.

I also commented at length on Shadow Creek.
Here again, numerous people were bashing the golf course, yet all of them had NEVER seen it.  How do you have a discussion, a debate, about the merits of a golf course, when the individuals who are commenting and bashing it have NEVER seen it.  It took Tom Doak to finally come onto the site and declare that it was a very good golf course.  
Then, all of a sudden, the critics went silent.

I think my record speaks for itself with respect to discussing features, holes, etc., etc., on FAZIO and JONES golf courses that I've played.

I will not comment on the design features of a course that I have not played.

Lastly, I am friendly with Rees, he is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, a gentleman, fun to be with, and competitive on the golf course, despite the fact that he lost a match on the 18th hole at Maidstone to a ball beater, a hacker, who bladed a ball out of the heavy rough near the 18th green, only to have it hit the flagstick and fall straight down into the hole.  Had the ball not hit the flagstick, the Atlantic Ocean would have been its resting place.
To this day Rees regards that incident as one of his bitterest defeats.
 
Rees and I we were neighbors light years ago and our dads were friendly.  We remain in touch with each other on a random basis.  Sometimes he calls me and sometimes I call him. I discuss architectual issues, both critical and positive, with Rees, and I feel that those discussions should remain between us.

I hope that addresses the issues you raised.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Yeah, right.

I'll let you hear it from me again:

Shadow Creek has some of the least interesting greens I have ever seen on a Top 100 course ever. It also has some pretty repetitive features that can be seen at least three or four times during a round. The 17th is cattle dung presented in hype. (waterscape presentation) The par 5's have little to offer other then 18, which is a decent hole.

There is more, much more. I'll leave it at that.

The positives:
-The par 3, 5th is the best hole on the course, especially all that is going on around it; Certainly a testament to vision and being able to create "everything from nothing."
-The recreation of the Pine Valley 15 & 16 affect (zen-like reflection pond and an actual view of another golf hole which is totally different then most Fazio.) which is pretty cool.
-A great experience.

There is probably more, but I'll keep it further to myself for fear of being labeled pro-Fazio.

Little was said before because a few of us didn't want to come off as Fazio-bashing from____________, __________ and ____________ (You fill in the blanks.)

Tom Doak, the reason why some of actually appreciate your work is because I don't think it is with-in your realm to mail something in, unlike __________, ____________, and __________ who don't seem to have a problem with it.

Keep on posting forever and you too Jim Lipe!

[Tim Weiman]

Tom Doak:

Before I go on semi hi-jacking your thread, may I say congratulations on the Golfweek rating. But, part of me wishes it came in about Number 63. Maybe then it could maintain a feeling of being remote, not overrun by the masses a la Pebble Beach.

If my worst fears come true, I'll just have to declare I'm going to Cape Kidnappers instead!


Pat Mucci:

As I've said before, bashing Rees holds no interest for me. One of my very closest friends worked with his Dad in Ballybunion, more than enough to win a place in my heart even if about 95% of the world still dislikes the Cashen. FYI, I even have some pleasant memories of the Atlantic thanks to Bobby Ranum.

Forget the bias stuff. It has run any useful course it may have served.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

If my memory serves me correctly, you might have been one of those commenting on it before you played it.  
And, obviously, I took exception and objected to that.
  
Any comments you make after you've played it, I take seriously, and view as legitimate.

[A_Clay_Man]

While I'll admit to not reading every word on every post on this site, I'd say that course bashing is something I rarely, if ever, see.

Sure, and deservedly so, there's feature bashing (or lack of) and there's also an intrinsic component that is a re-occuring theme in credible bashing and that's the lack of thoughtful, strategic, magical and/or an illusion filled round of golf.

I certainly don't see why a cult of passionate enthusiasts should sit idly by while a few charlottans turn wine into water. Do you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman

It must be a California thing, or perhaps mind altering drugs have affected the memories of many on this site.

I now appreciate the work of Russian, Revisionist Historians more than ever.

[Dan Kelly]

I think you mean Pravda. But I could be wrong.

How about this, as a ban-the-BIAS compromise? How about if you, Patrick Mucci Jr., pledge to comment no further on episodes of GCA bias up to and including today, November 26, 2002 -- and limit your remarks to BIAS demonstrated here subsequent to this day? (Aren't you a little tired of typing these words [among others]: "What do you call it when an individual says that Rees's courses don't make you think?"?)

This is an entirely reasonable proposal, which I'm sure we'd all be happy to endorse.

Right, boys? Patrick is waiting for your answer!

Tom I -- Place that call to Ms. Klum. Thanks.

Patrick --

Still waiting for your answer!